THP close burst question

[Newcastle.Ian]

So,

I play a lvl 2 shielding swordmage. This question deals with a combination of two variables. A power called Sword of Sigils and a weapon called Runic Longsword +1.

Sword of sigils is an Arcane, Force, Weapon power with a range of close burst 1, every enemy i hit in a close burst of 1 takes damage from my sword.

Runic Longsword +1 has a power which reads as follows: When you hit with an Arcane power (such as Sword of Sigils) using this weapon, you gain temporary hit points equal to the weapon's enchantment bonus(+1).

The question is: Although temporary hit points from separate sources do not stack, if I were to hit, for example, 3 enemies with a single power, would I gain one thp for each hit I land (3thp) or would I instead gain only 1 thp due to the antistacking rule? Is the weapon a "single source", or would the source be the separate individual hits from a single arcane power?

I hope this question was clearly stated. Please ask for further clarification if needed.

We play soon, so help me out!

Thanks team,
Ian

 

[Aulirophile]

There isn't really a concept of "Simultaneous" in the actual rules for 4e, and when there are there is usually a rule (BRV's feature, for instance).

In this case the attack order in the RC is what we should look at.

Step 1: Pick Power.
Step 2: Select Targets.
Step 3: Roll d20
Step 4: See if you hit, miss, or crit
Step 5: Resolve damage
Step 6: Repeat steps 3-5 if it is a multi-target power.

Runic Longsword is a triggered non-action, which therefore resolves immediately after it's trigger, even if that trigger is contained inside another action (again, RC).

So, following the attack order, you would hit > gain 1 THP. Resolve damage. Repeat twice. Still just the one THP because of the stacking rule.

 

[thewok]

Step 1: Pick Power.
Step 2: Select Targets.
Step 3: Roll d20
Step 4: See if you hit, miss, or crit
Step 5: Resolve damage
Step 6: Repeat steps 3-5 if it is a multi-target power.

Not saying you're wrong here, but just clarifying. This order of attack resolution is not valid for Area and Close attacks (and the attack in question is Close). In those cases, the steps would be more like:

Step 1: Select power.
Step 2: Select area or origin square.
Step 3: Roll damage for the power.
Step 4: Repeat the following steps for each target in the area of effect:
Step 4A: Roll an attack to determine hit, miss or critical hit.
Step 4B: Resolve damage on the target.

In any case, your conclusion is correct: you'd get just the one temporary hit point, as they would not stack with each other.

 

[Aulirophile]

Not saying you're wrong here, but just clarifying. This order of attack resolution is not valid for Area and Close attacks (and the attack in question is Close). In those cases, the steps would be more like:

Step 1: Select power.
Step 2: Select area or origin square.
Step 3: Roll damage for the power.
Step 4: Repeat the following steps for each target in the area of effect:
Step 4A: Roll an attack to determine hit, miss or critical hit.
Step 4B: Resolve damage on the target.

In any case, your conclusion is correct: you'd get just the one temporary hit point, as they would not stack with each other.

Uh... "if multi-target then repeat". That is the explicit RAW order of attacks, RC page 214. Many people, purely for practical purposes, roll damage then attack, but that isn't the actual order of operations, and they are not applied in that order. It is merely a convenience and is not a reference point for the actual rules.

 

[Mengu]

Unless otherwise stated, temporary hit points (even from close and area powers where simultaneity may be argued) won't stack.

See Paladin 3rd level encounter power Strength from Valor (DP) for an example of a close attack power where it would stack. That one specifically says: "You gain 5 temporary hit points for each target hit by the attack."

On the topic of area attacks being simultaneous or not (which I realize is off topic), they should be treated as simultaneous for immediate actions. For instance an immediate interrupt should happen before any of the attack rolls. And an immediate reaction should happen after all the attack rolls.

Example: A hell hound breathes on the party. Attack rolls are made, and in order, the attacks hit the barbarian, the fighter, and the ranger, all of which are adjacent to the hell hound. The ranger decides to use Disruptive Strike which is an immediate interrupt, and kills the hell hound. This would mean no one actually takes damage. Let's say his attack doesn't kill, but bloodies the target. The fighter then can use Jackal Strike as a free action (that triggers off the ranger's immediate interrupt), and possibly finish off the hell hound, again preventing any damage. Let's say that misses. The barbarian decides to use Curtain of Steel which is an immediate reaction. Even if Curtain of Steel kills the hell hound, everyone still takes the damage from the hell hound because it was an immediate reaction, regardless of whether the hell hound made its first attack roll against the barbarian or not.

 

[Aulirophile]

On the topic of area attacks being simultaneous or not (which I realize is off topic), they should be treated as simultaneous for immediate actions. For instance an immediate interrupt should happen before any of the attack rolls. And an immediate reaction should happen after all the attack rolls.

Example: A hell hound breathes on the party. Attack rolls are made, and in order, the attacks hit the barbarian, the fighter, and the ranger, all of which are adjacent to the hell hound. The ranger decides to use Disruptive Strike which is an immediate interrupt, and kills the hell hound. This would mean no one actually takes damage. Let's say his attack doesn't kill, but bloodies the target. The fighter then can use Jackal Strike as a free action (that triggers off the ranger's immediate interrupt), and possibly finish off the hell hound, again preventing any damage. Let's say that misses. The barbarian decides to use Curtain of Steel which is an immediate reaction. Even if Curtain of Steel kills the hell hound, everyone still takes the damage from the hell hound because it was an immediate reaction, regardless of whether the hell hound made its first attack roll against the barbarian or not.

The Ranger can decide to use Disruptive on a given attack roll, but it only interrupts the given attack roll in the sequence. If he kills the creature no damage is done not because it wasn't done in the sequence, but because Interrupts can specifically invalidate the entire action that contains their trigger. Jackal's Strike, however, could not invalidate as a response to DS unless it was on the first attack roll, because it is not an Interrupt and therefore lacks this exception. So in your example if the Ranger DSed the Barbarian, the Fighter could use JS to invalidate. If he DSed himself, the Fighter could only invalidate the damage to the Ranger.

Where you are currently wrong, by RAW, is the timing of Curtain of Steel. Reactions now resolve immediately after their trigger, even if that trigger is contained inside another action (RC 197). The trigger is "hit or miss" which is step 4. Curtain of Steel goes off between steps 4 and 5 of the attack process. If CoS kills the Bloodhound, no damage is done to the Barbarian, but damage would be done to the Fighter and Ranger if those attack rolls had been made first, because Reactions do not have the special ability to invalidate entire actions (except for move actions, under the right circumstances, but that is explicitly spelled out).

That is the current RAW. I expect some clarification or errata at some point because it causes... oddities, and isn't exactly RAI imo. Your suggested order of events is probably closer to RAI, but is not currently supported by the very explicit order the RC has given us for attacks, Interrupts, Reactions, Free Actions, and Triggers.

 

[thewok]

Uh... "if multi-target then repeat". That is the explicit RAW order of attacks, RC page 214. Many people, purely for practical purposes, roll damage then attack, but that isn't the actual order of operations, and they are not applied in that order. It is merely a convenience and is not a reference point for the actual rules.

By RAW, Close and Area powers are one damage roll, multiple attack rolls. "Resolve damage" doesn't necessarily mean to make another roll. It just means to apply it to the target.

By RAW, there is no step to roll damage, and you can do it whenever you want to roll: before the attack roll, at the same time as the attack roll or after the attack roll.

RC page 223.

Again, I was not disagreeing with you, but clarifying the best order for a Close attack. So, no, I shouldn't have said the order was invalid--merely confusing, since many people would equate "resolve damage" with "roll damage."

 

[Aulirophile]

So, no, I shouldn't have said the order was invalid--merely confusing, since many people would equate "resolve damage" with "roll damage."

I can agree with that, I was objecting to the "invalid" part. It works for Close/Area.. if oddly in a lot of circumstances. Very oddly.

 

[Newcastle.Ian]

bummer

so, i surround myself with a circle of foes and swing, hitting up to 8 enemies, triumphantly gaining 1 hit point 8 separate times, resulting in a single dominant temporary hit point? that's a bit anticlimactic. ohhhhh well, i was hoping to garner some support to bring to the table on wednesday night...or as the French say, "le bummer"

thanks y'all

 

[thewok]

so, i surround myself with a circle of foes and swing, hitting up to 8 enemies, triumphantly gaining 1 hit point 8 separate times, resulting in a single dominant temporary hit point? that's a bit anticlimactic. ohhhhh well, i was hoping to garner some support to bring to the table on wednesday night...or as the French say, "le bummer"

thanks y'all

Sorry we couldn't give you the answer you wanted.

As an aside, though, I have to say that this weapon seems pretty ... underpowered for a level 5 weapon. But, I guess it balances out for the most part:

As a swordmage, you're going to be getting 1 temporary hit point every round with the weapon. That's going to add up over the course of an encounter and help you stretch your surges out over the day. If you look at the infernal warlock (and hexblade), they specialize in gaining temporary hit points, and they're gaining their level (or con mod) in temporary hit points only when certain criteria are met.

So, if it were my game, I might houserule that the weapon gives 2 temporary hit points per point of enhancement bonus. But, I'd have to look it over and really consider what doing that might entail. I don't think that knocking two points of damage off the first attack of every round would be too game breaking, but one never knows until you get into actual play. And even then, I wouldn't want to step on the toes of someone whose actual gimmick is temporary hit points (i.e. infernal warlocks and hexblades).