Threatening Unarmed?

[IceBear]

Please don't try bring realism into this. It's been established in the past that it doesn't work.

It has been addressed in the rogue threads that someone with a bow doesn't threaten the squares around him sufficiently that I'm going to leave things as they were intended, in my opinion.

If you want realism, the whole aspect of drawing the ammunition is done as part of the attack could come with the cost that "between your attacks" you're focused on drawing the next arrow more than trying to trip someone or take advantage of the AoO. It's because the combat round is supposed to be fluid, but it's abstracted as segmented, that some of these issues come up. The more I think about it, the more I like the idea that it could be the reloading of the missle weapon that's causing you to not threaten. If the character is holding a shortbow but not intending to attack with it, then sure, he can take an AoO, but if he's planning on attacking then he's too busy getting his next shot ready to take advantage.

IceBear

 

[Caliban]

You just cannot make an AoO with the missile weapon. But it does not prevent you from making an AoO, assuming you want to draw AoOs in return, etc. for making an unarmed attack.

Why could I stick out my foot and make an AoO trip attack when holding a sword but not when holding a shortbow. Absurd...

-Fletch!

This is not absurd. Your stance and posture are very different when using a bow as compared to using a melee weapon.

 

[IceBear]

Also, from the latest FAQ:

Is it possible to flank an opponent when you’re using a
reach weapon, such as a halberd, from more than 5 feet
away? What about with ranged weapons?

You can flank any opponent within melee reach, even if you
use a reach weapon to put the foe within reach. If you’re out of
melee reach and you have a ranged weapon, you cannot flank
an opponent.

This tells me that for all intents and purposes that if you are ARMED with a ranged weapon, you don't threaten anything. Now, if you are holding a shortbow, but decide you want to be armed with your unarmed attack, fine, but no attacks with the bow on your turn.

IceBear

 

[mkletch]

I agree that you threaten when unarmed, and that you can trip as AoO both when armed or unarmed (you're tripping with legs I guess).

But if you have a ranged weapon or reach weapon and therefore you don't threaten the adjacent squares, why can't you AoO-trip someone who's drinking a potion close to you? Or simply keep the bow/javelin/reachweapon with the left hand and strike with a fist as AoO?

Is it just a matter of choosing: this round I'm taking 2WF penalties so that I can make AoOs, next round I don't and won't be able to do AoOs? Can you actually take 2WF penalties with a bow?

Just holding a reach weapon in your off-hand does not inflict TWF penalties if you attack with the primary hand, unless you also attack with the off-hand.

-Fletch!

 

[mkletch]

This tells me that for all intents and purposes that if you are ARMED with a ranged weapon, you don't threaten anything. Now, if you are holding a shortbow, but decide you want to be armed with your unarmed attack, fine, but no attacks with the bow on your turn.

So take my example of using quickdraw to draw an extra arrow at the end of your action, using that as an improvised weapon. This is perfectly legal. Why would this allow an AoO, but not an empty hand.

Originally posed by Caliban
This is not absurd. Your stance and posture are very different when using a bow as compared to using a melee weapon.

As are your posture and stance when attacking with a sword and shield, as compared to a trip or grapple. Sorry to turn your own wording on you, but it is inconsistent.

-Fletch!

 

[IceBear]

So take my example of using quickdraw to draw an extra arrow at the end of your action, using that as an improvised weapon. This is perfectly legal. Why would this allow an AoO, but not an empty hand.

Read what I posted. I'd have no issue with someone finishing their round ARMED with an arrow (or an empty hand), but they're also going to START the next round armed with the same weapon. If you end your round ARMED with the bow, then you're not getting AoO as you're busy preparing your next shot, and you're also ARMED with the bow when the round starts.

IceBear

 

[Caliban]

As are your posture and stance when attacking with a sword and shield, as compared to a trip or grapple. Sorry to turn your own wording on you, but it is inconsistent.

-Fletch!

No, it's not. The stance you use when fighting with a sword can be easily used to trip or be turned into a grapple. I know this, because I have done medieval style fencing.

When using a bow, you hold yourself completely differently, your center of gravity is higher, you are holding your shoulders higher, and your upper body is helping aim the bow, and your lower body is used to steady your shot. It's much less mobile than a melee stance. A melee stance is much looser, and you are more focused on your oppenents body and movements because you have to get past their guard, unlike with missile weapons.

 

[mkletch]

Read what I posted. I'd have no issue with someone finishing their round ARMED with an arrow (or an empty hand), but they're also going to START the next round armed with the same weapon. If you end your round ARMED with the bow, then you're not getting AoO as you're busy preparing your next shot, and you're also ARMED with the bow when the round starts.

And if armed with an arrow at the beginning of the round, then what? You shoot it! It has no effect on anything. Hey, even if you won't let me shoot it, I'll drop it as a free action and draw another to shoot. And I can Quickdraw another at the end of the round. Only quickened spells are limited to 1/round. Other free actions are 'within reason', and if a DM disallowed a drop and a Quickdraw in the same round, he is far enough out of reason that I would not let him drive himself home afterward...

-Fletch!

 

[IceBear]

IF you have Quickdraw, that's a valid tactic. I never said it wasn't.

But if you don't have Quickdraw, it a Move Equivalent to "draw" (rearm) the bow so no FRA with your bow. And yes, I know that it would most likely be a free action to "rearm" the bow, but before this debate I wouldn't have allowed any AoO with a bow at all, this is my compromise.

Clearly we have differing opinions on stuff, so I'm leaving these topics. You win. I'm going to play the game with the way I interpret the rules and you play it yours.

IceBear

 

[mkletch]

No, it's not. The stance you use when fighting with a sword can be easily used to trip or be turned into a grapple. I know this, because I have done medieval style fencing.

Point being exactly what. I was previously scolded for injecting reality, so I will do the same now. "You are scolded for injecting reality into the discussion."

When using a bow, you hold yourself completely differently, your center of gravity is higher, you are holding your shoulders higher, and your upper body is helping aim the bow, and your lower body is used to steady your shot.

Same deal. It depends on your style. I assure you that bow hunters do not assume a perfect olympic archery stance before shooting a deer or elk. "You are scolded (again) for injecting reality into the discussion(again)."

It's much less mobile than a melee stance. A melee stance is much looser, and you are more focused on your oppenents body and movements because you have to get past their guard, unlike with missile weapons.

Same deal. It depends on your style. The point is, holding a bow in your off hand does not negate the fact that you have a free hand that can deliver a knuckle sandwich to some fool that tries to drink a potion next to you. Sure, you cannot take a free shot with the bow against that guy, but you can kick, punch, grapple, trip, or even just make a funny face at him. Can I use my bow or crossbow as an improvised club. What if it was sundered, can I use it as a club then. Oh, here we are, on the 2E road to "exceptions for everything".

-Fletch!