Threatening Unarmed?

[aliensex]

...that was only a test. Had that been an actual post, it would have been followed by...

 

[Caliban]

Your making two attacks. Why is it slower to say one is a punch and one is a kick?


Aaron

Because when using a bow or a polearm, you are using both hands and arms. It takes a certain stance and balance to use them effectively. You are using your legs to brace yourself for your strike when using the polearm, for example.

Doing a kick after wacking someone with the polearm, or stabbing someone with an arrow after shooting your bow is not something you are normally in position for, it would put you off-balance, and probably be completely ineffective.

I can certainly see a feat or feat combination that would make it easier (Legolas probably has a "wield arrow" feat), but normally it's just to awkward and inefficient to do.

 

[Aaron2]

Originally posted by Ki Ryn "Certainly qualifies as reasonable"? That is not going to win you any debates in this forum. Using words like "certainly", "obviously", or "clearly" only shows that you haven't been around for very long (or haven't been paying attention). This ruleset is nothing if not abiguous and open to interpretation.

I'm not trying to win a debate (a -clearly- impossible task); certainly not a debate about whether switching a weapon from one hand to another is a free action. I am, however, attempting to state my perspective on what rules as written mean WRT unarmed attacks. I engage in these rules discussions mainly to help myself understand what the rules say. A "win" means my DMing skills improve.

That is not a valid argument when talking about these rules. Where does it say that I can't make kobolds explode by saying "Kuturpultuk" backwards?

Someone makes a claim that something "can't be done" and I respond with "where does it say that", why is this not a valid argument? Are character limited to only making actions that are specifically mentioned? If true, then they can't pee.

Aaron

 

[Aaron2]

Originally posted by Caliban Because when using a bow or a polearm, you are using both hands and arms. It takes a certain stance and balance to use them effectively. You are using your legs to brace yourself for your strike when using the polearm, for example.

Doing a kick after wacking someone with the polearm, or stabbing someone with an arrow after shooting your bow is not something you are normally in position for, it would put you off-balance, and probably be completely ineffective.

I guess I've seen too many kung-fu movies to consider this to be ineffective.

I'm trying to focus on just what the rules say.

I can certainly see a feat or feat combination that would make it easier (Legolas probably has a "wield arrow" feat), but normally it's just to awkward and inefficient to do.

I do have ulterior motives in this respect. I have often argued (with people who don't like D&D) that everything shown in the LOTR movie (at least the combat parts) can be simulated with 6th level characters using the normal D&D rules.

I don't want Legolas to be required to have any special feats or powers. His actions are just "special effects" of ordinary abilities. For ex: if he fires two arrows at once, that just Rapid Shot. If he fires an arrow that goes through one orc and hits another, again that's just Rapid Shot. He stabs an orc with an arrow and fires one at another thats just Interative Attacks. It must be the Hero System gamer in me.

I don't want to enter into another tangent on this, I'm just showing my perspective.

Aaron

 

[Caliban]

I guess I've seen too many kung-fu movies to consider this to be ineffective.

Kung fu movies involve martial artists with years of special training. they can do things that are normally awkward or impossible. Almost as if they learned special techniques (sometimes called "feats") that allow them to do things people normally can't.

I'm trying to focus on just what the rules say.

The rules say that you don't threaten with a ranged weapon, and that polearms can't attack the area next to you.

It's seems that they do not intend you to threaten those areas when wielding those weapons, or they would have mentioned it.

I do have ulterior motives in this respect. I have often argued (with people who don't like D&D) that everything shown in the LOTR movie (at least the combat parts) can be simulated with 6th level characters using the normal D&D rules.

*shrug* The rules weren't written to support an actor simulating a fantasy characters abilities. Legolas is supposed to be over a thousand years old. I highly doubt he's only 6th level.

I don't want Legolas to be required to have any special feats or powers.

Then he doesn't have Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, or Precise Shot? Sounds pretty crappy.

If you are saying that he does have those feats, then what is the problem with him having one more feat that allows him to stab guys with arrows effectively?

His actions are just "special effects" of ordinary abilities. For ex: if he fires two arrows at once, that just Rapid Shot. If he fires an arrow that goes through one orc and hits another, again that's just Rapid Shot.

So you do think he's using a feat. Make up your mind.

He stabs an orc with an arrow and fires one at another thats just Interative Attacks. It must be the Hero System gamer in me.

I think it would be a "Melee Arrow" feat that he learned because he's a bad ass. Nothing stops him from picking it up by 6th level. And it doesn't even require him to threaten an area with his bow.

I don't want to enter into another tangent on this, I'm just showing my perspective.

Aaron

It sounds like you are trying to twist the rules to fit the movie characters. It's never going to work fully. D&D is not an attempt to simulate the Lord of the Rings.

 

[Aaron2]

Originally posted by Caliban It's seems that they do not intend you to threaten those areas when wielding those weapons, or they would have mentioned it.

You can use a bow as an improvised melee weapon so it kinda counts. As for polearms, we'll have to agree to disagree.

So you do think he's using a feat. Make up your mind.

I meant that he can be represented with the feats, skills and abilities present in the core rules. For ex: Exotic Weapon prof (arrow). Although you can still attack with an arrow as an improvised weapon (listed as -4 to hit 1d4 damage in the weapon description).


Aaron

 

[Caliban]

I meant that he can be represented with the feats, skills and abilities present in the core rules. For ex: Exotic Weapon prof (arrow). Although you can still attack with an arrow as an improvised weapon (listed as -4 to hit 1d4 damage in the weapon description).


Aaron

"Arrow" is not on the list of exotic weapons in the core rules.

 

[IceBear]

I think it was kinda pointless to point out that you don't threaten with ranged weapons if they were going to let you threaten with your unarmed attacks. I believe that they intended that you can't make AoO when armed with a missle weapon. If you did, then it opens up a can of worms with sneak attacks, as the archer could "flank" for the rogue with his unarmed attacks.

IceBear

 

[mkletch]

"Arrow" is not on the list of exotic weapons in the core rules.

From the SRD, Equipment I
An arrow used as a melee weapon is Tiny and deals 1d4 points of piercing damage (X2 crit). Since it is not designed for this use, all characters are treated as not proficient with it and thus suffer a -4 penalty on their attack rolls.

So, no Exotic Weapon Proficiency for arrows. However, drawing an arrow is normally part of the attack. If you had Quickdraw, you could draw an arrow as a free action at the end of your turn and threaten the area around you with it. Hey! a good reason to take Quickdraw!

No two handed weapon actually requires two hands to hold, especially a bow. Two hands are needed for the attack only. You could specifically state, or make a general ruling saying that you can threaten the 5' area with an unarmed attack, but if you have a reach weapon, you would not threaten the expanded area whilst doing this.

As for two or more arrows at once (per LotR or Scorpion King), that is simply the Manyshot feat, a non-epic feat from the Epic Level Handbook that has certainly seen some wear on these message boards.

-Fletch!

 

[mkletch]

I think it was kinda pointless to point out that you don't threaten with ranged weapons if they were going to let you threaten with your unarmed attacks. I believe that they intended that you can't make AoO when armed with a missle weapon. If you did, then it opens up a can of worms with sneak attacks, as the archer could "flank" for the rogue with his unarmed attacks.

You just cannot make an AoO with the missile weapon. But it does not prevent you from making an AoO, assuming you want to draw AoOs in return, etc. for making an unarmed attack.

Why could I stick out my foot and make an AoO trip attack when holding a sword but not when holding a shortbow. Absurd...

-Fletch!