Throat Slit?

[Numion]

If our barber assassin times it just right, that hand on the forehead will keep the hero immoble during the attack, rendering him helpless long enough to perform the CDG.

For 6 seconds? Without any kind of contest of strengths / techniques? Doesn't sound very D&Dish to me. This also opens the door for all kinds of stupidness with invisible characters. It's pretty similar being ready with a headmans axe, invisible next to someone sitting in a chair (= not considered a threat) and being in a barbers chair. In the barbers chair you can even follow what he's doing and notice when the blade is suddenly at right angle to your neck, trying to pierce it.

D&D has well defined procedures for cases like this. A character fully awake and capable of acting isn't helpless, so lets not define it otherwise. Clearly there is an opportunity for a surprise round, and no amount of bluffing will let you CdG.

 

[Psimancer]

This kind of situation is outside of what WotC intended for Coup de Graces IMO.

You are 100% correct in this! And I perceive that to be an issue…

The story should never be a slave to the mechanics of the system and this is what we have here. It should be the story that influences how the mechanics work…

Every time that you come across a situation that cannot be accommodated by the rules it erodes the suspension of disbelief in the game. The rules should be fluid enough to adapt to any situation… and to a certain extent we have achieved that here with the 'one or more opposed roles leading up to the CDG'…

And to all the people that say, ‘but it’s un-heroic for a PC to die like that’; agreed, but that should not be a system enforced restriction, but a DM discretionary one. The DM should reserve the use of a CDG to dramatically appropriate situations (like the one described by Stormborn with the barber)…

And to those that say it should be resolved by a surprise round sneak attack; lets be honest, a high level character is not going to die from that under any circumstances. IMHO a blade across the throat should at least have the potential to be lethal… and with a CDG it does…

Anyway, that’s my two cents worth…


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[Saeviomagy]

Actually, I think that this may be the time for the wizard to realise he can make ample use of 'prestidigitation' to shave any member of the party that needs it. Not to mention clean up those unsightly sweat stains on clothing etc.

Adventurers (wizards at least) never have to deal with being cold, sweaty, unshaven or unkempt if they don't want to.

 

[S'mon]

How about a Bluff vs Sense Motive roll, if the Barber wins then the victim is treated as Helpless & can be CDG'd? I agree that it's a potential CDG situation, but unless the Barber has Sneak Attack razor damage should be very low (1d2?) and potentially survivable.

 

[Geoff Watson]

And to those that say it should be resolved by a surprise round sneak attack; lets be honest, a high level character is not going to die from that under any circumstances. IMHO a blade across the throat should at least have the potential to be lethal… and with a CDG it does…

Anyway, that’s my two cents worth…


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The problem with a CDG, is that it is usually 95% lethal, not mere 'potential'.
Nearly any foe, unless pathetically weak compared with the PCs, will do enough damage on a critical to require a 20 to save.

Anyway, slit throats aren't immediately lethal except in movies. The PC would easily have time to grab a healing potion or get help from one of the other PCs.

Geoff.

 

[hong]

The problem with a CDG, is that it is usually 95% lethal, not mere 'potential'.
Nearly any foe, unless pathetically weak compared with the PCs, will do enough damage on a critical to require a 20 to save.

Anyway, slit throats aren't immediately lethal except in movies. The PC would easily have time to grab a healing potion or get help from one of the other PCs.

Geoff.

Heck, even in movies, slit throats aren't always immediately lethal. Most of the time the victim stumbles around for a bit in shock, before collapsing.

If you want an instant kill, you put a knife into the brain stem or spinal cord. But that's not really the scenario the OP was talking about.

 

[Numion]

You are 100% correct in this! And I perceive that to be an issue…

The story should never be a slave to the mechanics of the system and this is what we have here. It should be the story that influences how the mechanics work…

Every time that you come across a situation that cannot be accommodated by the rules it erodes the suspension of disbelief in the game. The rules should be fluid enough to adapt to any situation… and to a certain extent we have achieved that here with the 'one or more opposed roles leading up to the CDG'…

Well, if the demands of the story handle situations like this, rather than the D&D rules, why ask about it on the rules forum? I mean, if lethality was desired, couldn't the DM just wing it ("Suddenly Conan the Barberian flips out and cuts your neck open .. roll .. um .. 20 DC fort save or die"), rather than trying to shoehorn the situation into something it's not?

Then there is the fact, as those Iraq videos showed, that cutting necks isn't that easy. Now imagine doing the same with a puny blade and not able to hold the target properly, or pin him to ground. Death isn't instantenous, like it's with CdG.

 

[Particle_Man]

You are 100% correct in this! And I perceive that to be an issue…

The story should never be a slave to the mechanics of the system and this is what we have here. It should be the story that influences how the mechanics work…

And to those that say it should be resolved by a surprise round sneak attack; lets be honest, a high level character is not going to die from that under any circumstances. IMHO a blade across the throat should at least have the potential to be lethal… and with a CDG it does… .

Ah, but this is D&D, where high-level characters can survive 200 foot falls. They just don't die in barber chairs. That is for other games.

My point? Once you buy into D&D, you are buying into heroic fantasy paradigms that throw realism out the window. Think of weapons like the Dire Flail, and how anyone could survive wielding one. So, whatever would happen in real life, in D&D the expected result is "The hero's sixth sense warns him just in time, and he grabs the hand of the would-be assassin. 'Ah, that is a closer shave than I would like, methinks,' chuckles the hero as combat ensues..." Barbers just don't kill heros. That would be, well, unheroic.

The rules don't support barbers killing heros because the theme of the game does not support barbers killing heros.

 

[ARandomGod]

Well first off the PC in question is not helpless (unless they're strapped into the chair or something) - so a coup de grace is out of the question.

How about giving the PC a sense motive check to see the attack coming; if they fail it then the attack is an automatic critical hit (also a sneak attack if applicable) - if they pass, then perhaps an automatic hit, or a roll to hit a prone, probably unarmoured target for non-critical damage?

Re: Ultimagabe - being unaware of hostile intent is not the same as being helpless. The situation is functionally identical to sneaking up on someone unawares, and making a melee attack..

That's pretty much how I'd rule it... as a sneak attack, possibly with a bonus to make it auto crit. if they attempt and fail a sense motive check.

 

[S'mon]

If it were a Commoner barber, should be something like 1d2 damage, Fort save 11-12 or die. If a high level assassin, the PC should get Sense Motive vs Bluff or Spot vs Disguise etc to tell that the guy isn't really a barber, only if he fails should there be a sneak attack CDG. Something like that.