Throat Slit?

[Bauglir]

President Bush, is that you?

eh?

 

[reanjr]

Consider this: A rogue with a ring of invisbility manages to move right up behind a victim undetected. He then carefully (and invisibly) reaches around and cuts his victim's throat. The victim is not defending himself in any way, since he is unaware of the rogue's presence. Is this situation a coup de grace?

If not, what is the defining difference that makes the barber scenario a coup de grace, while this is not?

I think it would be the fact that when the barber is doing it, you expect to feel a razor at your throat. When the rogue does it, it's out of place.

And I think the only reason Coup de Grace is not available in situations like you describe is game balance. It makes sense to give the rogue a Coup de Grace attempt. But it would seem brutally unfair to the players and very probably detract from the fun.

 

[reanjr]

PC sits down in chair.
Barber starts the shave.
(Now a Sense Motive Check? And if so what reaction?)
Barber then attempts to slit PCs throat.

I'd actually do the sense motive check when the two are talking about the transaction. Once the player sits down, I'd say it's over (though the character could sit down after passing a sense motive check and be ready). When you are sitting in a barber chair, you usually can't see the barber's face very weel (if at all) and wouldn't be able to "read" them by that point.

If there is a mirror (unlikely), I'd allow a second sense motive check when the action is about to occur.

 

[Bauglir]

I think it would be the fact that when the barber is doing it, you expect to feel a razor at your throat. When the rogue does it, it's out of place.

Arguably, by the time you feel the rogue's dagger it's already too late. Conversely one could argue that when the barber angles the razor to cut rather than shave, the person in the chair could recoil before the CdG was delivered, perhaps even doing so as an instictive reaction to pain..

And I think the only reason Coup de Grace is not available in situations like you describe is game balance. It makes sense to give the rogue a Coup de Grace attempt. But it would seem brutally unfair to the players and very probably detract from the fun.

I think you hit the nail on the head here. My feeling is that allowing the barber a coup de grace here would also detract from the fun. The Coup de Grace is a very deadly mechanic - as some people have already mentioned it can allow a first level commoner a decent chance to instantly dispatch a high level adventurer. I feel that such a mechanic should be severely restricted in its use. IMC a character who is not expecting an attack is not subject to a CdG - as long as they are physically capable of moving to avoid the attack, I don't consider them to be helpless.

YMMV.

 

[Nellisir]

I'd call for a Sense Motive vs. Bluff, and if the barber won I'd give him a CDG.

Leaning back to let someone put a razor to your throat is leaving yourself as open as anything I can think of, certainly moreso than just getting attacked by someone you weren't aware of.

Being helpless isn't just being open to attack; it's being unable to prevent an attack. I don't know if you've ever been shaved with a straight razor, but I know that last thing I do is relax and not pay attention to EXACTLY where that razor is.

Cheers
Nell.

 

[Magus Coeruleus]

I think that since CDG is a full-round action the target should pretty much be helpless for the full round as the attacker prepares and executes the strike. The shavee isn't helpless, just trusting. Compare to if you're exchanging a hug with someone you trust and they take that opportunity to stick a dagger into a vital organ? Would you call that a CDG just because the person totally trusts the attacker and is in a compromising position (have this occur in bed with the attacker if you think the victim has too much of an advantage standing up)?

I would give a Sense Motive check earlier on, and just before the attack, a Spot check for surprise just as normal. The Spot check represents noticing that combat is imminent, just as when you are parleying and someone decides to attack all of the sudden. Cinematically speaking, the Spot check represents whether the shavee happens to notice in the mirror (or, for extra flavor, in a reflection on the flat of the razor) an expression on the barber's face that tells him something's up. The check can be made with some massive penalty representing trust, but then that depends, too, right? Maybe the shavee is kind of paranoid, and while he is willing to get the shave, he is alert and feeling vulnerable (as many would), ready to pull back or do something as soon as that blade starts cutting the wrong way. Anyway, failed Spot means a surprise attack, and then there's initiative. Plenty of opportunity for the properly-trained "barber" to do something nasty.

 

[Christian]

Ye gods, two days of this thread and no Monty Python reference? We should all be hanging our heads in shame ...

"You know, I never wanted to be a barber ..."

 

[Stormborn]

Well the Ranger survived. The Barber was set up in a fair, juggeling to draw people in. He gave shaves and a hair cut to the 2 other male party members. I rolled the ranger's Sense Motive v. Bluff. The PC failed. He got in the chair. I determined the assassin got a full suprise round considering the situation. He applied a contact poision and began to slit the ranger's throat. The Ranger made both his saving throws against the poison and the Death Attack. But, I made the attack an automatic crit and the villian rolled really well, doing max damage. Initiative was rolled, and the deadly barber won. He got a second sneak attack against the flat footed ranger before the other PCs could join the action. Durign the first round the thugs the barber had hired as back up were quickly dispatched by the ranger's allies while another PC came to his aid. The Assassin was dead in about 3 round, along with one of the thugs, the others surrendered. The ranger had lost over hlaf his HP, but otherwise the party was unharmed. Before he died the Barber indicated he was hired by the local Barrelmen's Guild (canal dock workers basically.)
The Fair Warden arrived, and due to both the PCs rep and the fact that the barber was revealled to be a wanted criminal with a bounty on his head things were quickly resolved and the PCs got reward money equal to the standard treasure for the CR.

 

[Psimancer]

Hmmm, tricky…

From the SRD (apologies if someone has already pointed this out) “…Some full-round actions can be taken as standard actions, but only in situations when you are limited to performing only a standard action during your round…”

Given the circumstances, I would allow a CDG to fall under this clause during the Surprise round…

But I would definitely require a ‘Sense Motive’ vs ‘Bluff’ first…

Consider this: A rogue with a ring of invisbility manages to move right up behind a victim undetected. He then carefully (and invisibly) reaches around and cuts his victim's throat. The victim is not defending himself in any way, since he is unaware of the rogue's presence. Is this situation a coup de grace?

From memory, they described something very similar as a CDG in the first printing of the Star Wars d20 RPG… except it was sneaking up to someone and shooting them point blank with a blaster…



.

 

[MerakSpielman]

What does it mean to be helpless? The rules quote seems to be "unable to respond to attacks."

I would personally qualify a character being unwillingto respond to attacks as qualifying as being unable.

In the barber chair, the character has willingly rendered themselves unwilling to respond to the sensation of a blade at his throat. He has willingly adopted a helpless stance in order to get his beard removed. I would treat an assassination attempt at this time, by the barber with the razor, to be a coup de grace attempt.

The invisible rogue situation is different. The character, I am assuming, has not deliberately and knowingly lowered his defenses. In a fantasy world, a rogue sneaking up on you invisibly is a very real threat, and while the actual event might be a bit surprising, the fact that it's happening at all won't be. The instant you feel you are in danger, be that when the blade touches your skin, or when the rogue locks his arms around you to expose your neck properly, you react to minimize the damage. You are not helpless. You are On Guard, and can be expected to be ready for more or less anything. Such an attack would still be a sneak attack, however.