D&D 4E Throwing ideas, seeing what sticks (and what stinks)

[bolded] That's the goal - actually, the goal is to present situations where the players can learn/recognize an optimal strategy and be able to enact it. The last part is key!
Right, of course its variable what you need. A bunch of old time players are going to lob fire at trolls, they know what to do. A bunch of 4th graders playing for the 1st time? They PROBABLY don't know about trolls and fire... So different things will work for these different groups, and to different degrees. For the old timers you may need trolls that eat fire and need cold iron weapons to kill them, but you better be prepared to have a good story for that, and probably to let the players avail themselves of that information beforehand, though maybe only if they think to do so. For the newbies a helpful NPC or some barrels of pitch left behind by the last guy that tried to kill off the trolls might be a good option.

4e's stock answer isn't BAD though, you can defeat trolls and know zip about the fire thing, but it will make it a bit harder and you'll probably have to learn. OTOH going in fully cognizant will HELP a bit, but it won't suddenly make the trolls a trivial obstacle. Now and then you'd like more, and the Catastrophic Dragons were of course a good example of a bit more extreme but interesting tactic. Its hard to make monsters of that ilk all the time though.

As I said, for me, keeping track of a separate hp pool is a breeze - it's simply a column beside the regular one (I count damage taken, never hp) and having a once per encounter trigger isn't a problem: once that column hits the target number, I never need to reference it again. It's not something I have to watch out for - I'll see it immediately when I jot down the damage taken.

Marks... I strongly dislike marks from monsters. Especially those that take effect on a hit and that last only a round... (When I use [soldiers] they have an aura mark unless they have a really cool mark effect - then I don't mind, because it's awesome, and I probably chose that monster for that ability.) Also, (save ends) on basic attacks... no. Just no. Unless it's imperative to the monster's identity, that stuff goes right out the window. I tend to "replace" it with having the effect trigger only on a high roll (how high will depend upon how often I want it to come into play.)

I really dislike save ends effects. I'm fine with a mark or something, it always lasts until the target's next turn ends. In fact in my 4e hack that, 'concentration', and 'end of encounter' are the only durations. It makes things vastly simpler. I also find that because it narrows the field of possible minor variations on powers their design tends to focus more on really narratively significant differences.
 

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MoutonRustique

Explorer
I really dislike save ends effects. I'm fine with a mark or something, it always lasts until the target's next turn ends. In fact in my 4e hack that, 'concentration', and 'end of encounter' are the only durations. It makes things vastly simpler. I also find that because it narrows the field of possible minor variations on powers their design tends to focus more on really narratively significant differences.
That's a cool idea for durations - I can see myself leaning this way and using 5e's approach of "permanent until you remove it" (probably coupled with something ~ to the [skill save ends] ideas that were built a while ago.)

The effect keywords determine which skill is pertinent:
Radiant, necrotic = religion | elemental, psychic = arcana | elemental, poison = nature | thunder, poison = Endurance , etc (or something)
The action used to remove influences the DC:
as a [minor] = hard DC | as a [standard] = easy DC (or as stated in monster block | you get +5 to check, or advantage, or, or...)

It might not even require difficult modifications: my gut tells me just going 1/2 to ongoing damage would probably work out fairly well. (Of course that does kind of increase the problematic of [resistance] vs [ongoing]... but... well, I don't have an answer right now, but that seems like a lesser evil.)

[sblock=bit of a rant...](Save ends) is the same kind of thing as [+5% dmg to fire] : it can seem really cool, but it hits the "human factor" in the wrong place.

You want rounds to be fairly quick, but most importantly, you want to keep building the intensity! Having a round "flow" is a fairly important part of that and (save ends) tramples that to dust. If rounds go from [a bit of bookkeeping/checking], [action declaration] and [action resolution] you have a flow there that can ramp up. Even if the next player slows things down a bit, it can work as a sort of slow building wave pattern. You have like 1,2,3! 1.1, 2.1, 3.1! and so on.

When you have [a bit of bookkeeping/checking] [action declaration] [action resolution] and then [more bookkeeping], your entire "flow" is scrapped. 1,2,3!,1 is just a bad pattern...[/sblock]
 

That's a cool idea for durations - I can see myself leaning this way and using 5e's approach of "permanent until you remove it" (probably coupled with something ~ to the [skill save ends] ideas that were built a while ago.)

The effect keywords determine which skill is pertinent:
Radiant, necrotic = religion | elemental, psychic = arcana | elemental, poison = nature | thunder, poison = Endurance , etc (or something)
The action used to remove influences the DC:
as a [minor] = hard DC | as a [standard] = easy DC (or as stated in monster block | you get +5 to check, or advantage, or, or...)

It might not even require difficult modifications: my gut tells me just going 1/2 to ongoing damage would probably work out fairly well. (Of course that does kind of increase the problematic of [resistance] vs [ongoing]... but... well, I don't have an answer right now, but that seems like a lesser evil.)

Well, there are a lot of possibilities of course. You could for instance scrap defenses, as such, and replace them with skill checks. You could then make every attack an opposed check, and a duration could simply be 'success ends', with the character making another check (basically a save). That doesn't address your rant, but it would be an interesting mechanic. One could argue it would slow things down too much, though I'm not sure that would need to be the case. Obviously it would have some interesting effects on the whole concept of defenses though. Nobody would be really top notch in most areas. Being a skill monkey would suddenly become a huge boon too, and the value of things like JoT would jump a whole lot. Probably not something you'd want to try within the framework of 4e proper, though a hack like mine could make it work.
 

A hack I've been contemplating for Save Ends inspired by 13th Age and my own desire to make Save Ends not *worse* than Until End of Next Turn (as the game designers seem to think (se) is superior, see lots of powers' miss effects).

What you need: a way to track conditions that has three states: full effect, waning, and gone. So technically you only need to tack the first two states because when the condition is gone we just remove the tracker.

You could use tokens with different colored sides, or (what I use) 'condition flags' that can either be fully vertical or kind of diagonal/horizontal (like tapped Magic cards).

Rules Changes
  • General change: Roll 'Save Ends' when your turn starts instead of when it ends.
  • When you make a saving throw, on success, the condition becomes 'waning'. On a failure, the condition remains in full effect.
  • Waning conditions go away by themselves at the start of your next turn.

Implication: you always take at least one round's worth of effects from the (save ends) condition.


How this works:

  • Monster's turn, it hits you with a Melting Attack and you pick up ongoing 5 damage (save ends).
  • Start of your turn, you make a saving throw and fail. The ongoing damage remains in full effect. You take 5 damage at the start of your turn (as normal).
  • Start of your next turn, you make another saving throw, this time you succeed. The ongoing damage becomes waning. You take 5 damage at the start of your turn (as normal).
  • Start of your third turn, the ongoing damage goes away. You don't take any more damage.
  • Total damage taken: 10.
 

A hack I've been contemplating for Save Ends inspired by 13th Age and my own desire to make Save Ends not *worse* than Until End of Next Turn (as the game designers seem to think (se) is superior, see lots of powers' miss effects).

What you need: a way to track conditions that has three states: full effect, waning, and gone. So technically you only need to tack the first two states because when the condition is gone we just remove the tracker.

You could use tokens with different colored sides, or (what I use) 'condition flags' that can either be fully vertical or kind of diagonal/horizontal (like tapped Magic cards).

Rules Changes
  • General change: Roll 'Save Ends' when your turn starts instead of when it ends.
  • When you make a saving throw, on success, the condition becomes 'waning'. On a failure, the condition remains in full effect.
  • Waning conditions go away by themselves at the start of your next turn.

Implication: you always take at least one round's worth of effects from the (save ends) condition.


How this works:

  • Monster's turn, it hits you with a Melting Attack and you pick up ongoing 5 damage (save ends).
  • Start of your turn, you make a saving throw and fail. The ongoing damage remains in full effect. You take 5 damage at the start of your turn (as normal).
  • Start of your next turn, you make another saving throw, this time you succeed. The ongoing damage becomes waning. You take 5 damage at the start of your turn (as normal).
  • Start of your third turn, the ongoing damage goes away. You don't take any more damage.
  • Total damage taken: 10.

Its workable, though I wouldn't want to introduce the extra bookkeeping myself. OTOH it might not be so bad if it was the ONLY duration mechanic, aside from say concentration and encounter maybe, as those are a lot less problematic.

Another concept would be to go truly to a checked system where EVERYTHING is an opposed check, and there's no 'offense' or 'defense'. Instead every attack is an interaction that works both ways. So when you swing at someone, they get to defend, either attacker or defender could take damage. If you cast a spell at someone, it could rebound on YOU. I think presumably the results of a successful defense in all cases would be less significant than a successful attack, but that might not always need to be the case either. Greater risks could bring greater rewards, to either party.
 

pemerton

Legend
I haven't got anything useful to say about durations - I just use them buy-the-book - but I thought I'd say something about the "puzzle" aspect of combat encounters.

EVERY monster should present a 'puzzle' in the form of asking the question 'what tactics will defeat this'. The danger with 4e is in simply assembling encounter after encounter of stock monsters, which then simply demand stock tactics to defeat. So, a monster that deviates more from the norm is useful. They also tend to be things that can synergize well with specific terrain and tactical situations.
its variable what you need. A bunch of old time players are going to lob fire at trolls, they know what to do. A bunch of 4th graders playing for the 1st time? They PROBABLY don't know about trolls and fire... So different things will work for these different groups, and to different degrees. For the old timers you may need trolls that eat fire and need cold iron weapons to kill them, but you better be prepared to have a good story for that
I personally think the "fire vs trolls", "no electricity vs shambling mound" etc thing isn't a very interesting puzzle when it is about player ignorance. I can see how in some games you might use overarching rumour or research mechanics so that the issue of ignorance, and hence of being able to solve the puzzle, is itself an element of overall skilled play, but I don't think that 4e lends itself to this very well (whereas, say, Burning Wheel probably would).

The turnover of encounter is pretty high in 4e, and I think the game works best when the session/adventure structure is fluid, being a consequence of what happens in those individual encounters. And so the idea that the PCs (and, by implication, the players) would take steps now in relation to some encounter an indeterminate time down the track just doesn't seem that workable to me. (Unless its about Orcus, or Lolth, or some end-game type opponent that everyone can see coming - one reason that this works better in BW is that BW tends towards having only these endgame-style encounters.)

In my most recent 4e session the PCs were fighting (among other foes) an 8-headed Primordial Heroslaying Hydra. When a head got cut off, and two more grew in its place, they wanted to know how to stop that happening. So an Arcana check was made, and the Sage of Ages recognised the hydra as one that is vulnrable to cold and necrotic. And so the puzzle aspect wasn't "What do we have to do to stop it sprouting heads?", but rather "How can we deliver cold or necrotic damage to this hydra?" I think that works better in the 4e context, because it is a tactical puzzle that the game is well-adapted to making an interesting element of the game (eg maybe only one PC has cold damage, and is doing stuff over there, and we somehow need to get that character engaged with the hydra over here without allowing the situation over there to escalate out of control).

I haven't really found "stock tactics" too much of an issue in my 4e GMing. Of course there are some repeated patterns - each player's PC gives rise to some particular suite of resources, and so of course the fighter wants to get in the middle to unleash Come and Get It or some other close burst, and the sorcerer wants enemies grouped (but without a fighter in the middle) so they can be targetted with Blazing Starfall, etc.

But with a reasonable mix of NPCs and monsters, and some decent terrain, it's not that hard to force the players to mix it up a bit and think on their feet. Eg in the same encounter with the hydra I had acid rain falling for 10 damage at the end of the turn, with shelter available in a temple but that means getting into the aura of the Godforged Colossus and/or into the burst radius of the Soul Gem. (The fictional situation is one of the PCs being in Carceri trying to hunt down Miska the Wolf-Spider.) The temple was on the thinnest part of an isthmus, and the PC ranger got knocked over the edge into the acid lake.

This sort of thing keeps the players on their toes, and 4e - with its good variety of monster special abilities and its relatively reliable and robust mechanics for resolving forced movement and other effects - makes it pretty easy to implement.

On a recent thread on the 5e board someone was criticising the idea of "balanced encounters" on the grounds that 5 orcs in a 10' by 10' room and 5 balors in a 50' by 50' room is ultimately much the same, and hence boring or at least unmemorable. The claim is probably true, but I can't verify it from experience because there's just no need to run those sorts of encounters in 4e. This is even the case at 1st level: my first ever 4e combat encounter was adapted from Night's Dark Terror, and involved the PCs' boat being stopped by a chain across a river. There was a sandbar or two, enemies on a raft, the current rules from the DMG, and PCs falling into the river after failing Athletics check but then eventually gaining control of the enemy raft after (if I'm remembering properly all these years later) the warlock teleported onto it. And in our last Dark Sun session - still at 1st level - the PCs fought some templars in a dry gully with DT on its silty floor, fairly steep sides that needed an Athletics check to climb out of to escape the melee but also allowed taking cover by lying prone, and some buildings near its edges for taking cover. Both PCs and NPCs were moving around in that encounter, trying to bring forces to bear and establish or maintain flanks, and trying to get out when the damage was stacking up too badly.

You don't even need especially imaginative monsters to do this sort of thing. (In both the 1st level encounters I've mentioned, I don't think the NPCs had anything much more exciting than melee and ranged basic attacks. Maybe one special "leader"-type in each encounter.)
 

I'm not seeing any functional difference between the following:
* PCs hit troll, it regenerates damage. "How do we stop it?" Use fire/acid.
* PCs hit hydra, it regrows heads. "How do we stop it?" Use cold/necrotic.

The first one is a D&D cliche and the second one only got introduced into the game recently, but they are the same mechanic. Either both are 'puzzles', or neither are.

I'm actually fine with 'trick' monsters like this as long as they are used in moderation like all things. And as long as the PCs have some way to figure out the trick, so your game must involve pre-combat info gathering or in-combat knowledge checks, and the players must know that.
 

I personally think the "fire vs trolls", "no electricity vs shambling mound" etc thing isn't a very interesting puzzle when it is about player ignorance. I can see how in some games you might use overarching rumour or research mechanics so that the issue of ignorance, and hence of being able to solve the puzzle, is itself an element of overall skilled play, but I don't think that 4e lends itself to this very well (whereas, say, Burning Wheel probably would).
Why on Earth wouldn't 4e lend itself to this? Certainly MECHANICALLY it is well-suited, you can incorporate such factors into an SC, or simply use Knowledge Checks. A GM could easily encourage this sort of thing by using some of these "do the right thing or else" type monsters. They can also be a good motivator for characters to invest in some consumables (you can make yourself more adaptable to different situations by packing a few different potions for instance, not dirt cheap, but not prohibitive either).

The turnover of encounter is pretty high in 4e, and I think the game works best when the session/adventure structure is fluid, being a consequence of what happens in those individual encounters. And so the idea that the PCs (and, by implication, the players) would take steps now in relation to some encounter an indeterminate time down the track just doesn't seem that workable to me. (Unless its about Orcus, or Lolth, or some end-game type opponent that everyone can see coming - one reason that this works better in BW is that BW tends towards having only these endgame-style encounters.)
Well, my preference is that GENERALLY encounters SHOULD be either building up to something in a clear way (and thus foreshadowing the capabilities of one of your example boss monsters is a fine idea) or BE a boss themselves, in general. I mean, sure, now and then you may have a combat encounter that is just color, in which case there's no issue with it just being fairly stock monsters.

In my most recent 4e session the PCs were fighting (among other foes) an 8-headed Primordial Heroslaying Hydra. When a head got cut off, and two more grew in its place, they wanted to know how to stop that happening. So an Arcana check was made, and the Sage of Ages recognised the hydra as one that is vulnrable to cold and necrotic. And so the puzzle aspect wasn't "What do we have to do to stop it sprouting heads?", but rather "How can we deliver cold or necrotic damage to this hydra?" I think that works better in the 4e context, because it is a tactical puzzle that the game is well-adapted to making an interesting element of the game (eg maybe only one PC has cold damage, and is doing stuff over there, and we somehow need to get that character engaged with the hydra over here without allowing the situation over there to escalate out of control).
Yeah, that's pretty much how I'd deal with it. I recall once having a location that contained a bunch of 'lightning stones', the PCs had determined this by having a fight there and learning that the stones generated thunder and lightning damage when they were hit with various attacks. Then the Shambling Mounds started showing up... Obviously they chose to take the fight elsewhere, but there were other plot considerations that made it a hard choice. So that worked fine.

I haven't really found "stock tactics" too much of an issue in my 4e GMing. Of course there are some repeated patterns - each player's PC gives rise to some particular suite of resources, and so of course the fighter wants to get in the middle to unleash Come and Get It or some other close burst, and the sorcerer wants enemies grouped (but without a fighter in the middle) so they can be targetted with Blazing Starfall, etc.
No, but its pretty easy to find accounts of campaigns that appear to have had this sort of issue where the GM wasn't terribly creative about building interesting scenarios and the game devolved down to a long list of 'fight to the death' scenarios 5x5 without much varying except the mix of monsters. Some of those will be interesting, but I think its quite possible for a game to become very cookie-cutter. You and I and other GMs that have been around a long time and built up skills aren't going to have this issue, but 4e simply happens to cater to us, and not so much to others. I think there's room in the design to mix it up some.

But with a reasonable mix of NPCs and monsters, and some decent terrain, it's not that hard to force the players to mix it up a bit and think on their feet. Eg in the same encounter with the hydra I had acid rain falling for 10 damage at the end of the turn, with shelter available in a temple but that means getting into the aura of the Godforged Colossus and/or into the burst radius of the Soul Gem. (The fictional situation is one of the PCs being in Carceri trying to hunt down Miska the Wolf-Spider.) The temple was on the thinnest part of an isthmus, and the PC ranger got knocked over the edge into the acid lake.

This sort of thing keeps the players on their toes, and 4e - with its good variety of monster special abilities and its relatively reliable and robust mechanics for resolving forced movement and other effects - makes it pretty easy to implement.
I agree, for me and you it is.

On a recent thread on the 5e board someone was criticising the idea of "balanced encounters" on the grounds that 5 orcs in a 10' by 10' room and 5 balors in a 50' by 50' room is ultimately much the same, and hence boring or at least unmemorable. The claim is probably true, but I can't verify it from experience because there's just no need to run those sorts of encounters in 4e. This is even the case at 1st level: my first ever 4e combat encounter was adapted from Night's Dark Terror, and involved the PCs' boat being stopped by a chain across a river. There was a sandbar or two, enemies on a raft, the current rules from the DMG, and PCs falling into the river after failing Athletics check but then eventually gaining control of the enemy raft after (if I'm remembering properly all these years later) the warlock teleported onto it. And in our last Dark Sun session - still at 1st level - the PCs fought some templars in a dry gully with DT on its silty floor, fairly steep sides that needed an Athletics check to climb out of to escape the melee but also allowed taking cover by lying prone, and some buildings near its edges for taking cover. Both PCs and NPCs were moving around in that encounter, trying to bring forces to bear and establish or maintain flanks, and trying to get out when the damage was stacking up too badly.

You don't even need especially imaginative monsters to do this sort of thing. (In both the 1st level encounters I've mentioned, I don't think the NPCs had anything much more exciting than melee and ranged basic attacks. Maybe one special "leader"-type in each encounter.)

Yeah. Again, I'm not really disagreeing with you. I think though that some oddball monsters can help some DMs. I think that classic D&D had many such creatures, and 4e may have watered some of them down a bit too much, or just left them out entirely in a lot of cases. Certainly that can be colored as "focusing on the sweet spot of the design" but I never understood the mentality that having a Trapper, a Green Slime, etc would really be a BAD thing. Its not like you MUST use them.
 

pemerton

Legend
I'm not seeing any functional difference between the following:
* PCs hit troll, it regenerates damage. "How do we stop it?" Use fire/acid.
* PCs hit hydra, it regrows heads. "How do we stop it?" Use cold/necrotic.

The first one is a D&D cliche and the second one only got introduced into the game recently, but they are the same mechanic. Either both are 'puzzles', or neither are.
There's no difference. Who said there was?
 

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