D&D 4E Throwing ideas, seeing what sticks (and what stinks)

[AbdulAlhazred]

Wonder if you could use a feature from 13A to help that out as well each round up the number on a die and add that to player character attacks and defenses its more subtle perhaps but should combine nicely with the above as things go more in their favor later in the fight.

Bloodied condition abilities that for players get stronger when they or their target are bloodied also seem important.

One of those things basically thrown out by 5e.

I was never that fond of escalation dice. It seems like a kind of a blunt instrument of game design. Clumsy. [MENTION=6696971]Manbearcat[/MENTION], your suggestions for DW seem feasible, at least to first glance. I'd think there'd have to be some reworking of a bit of the math, like damage vs hit points is going to change.

DW is also pretty much totally 'FLAT', you do get some higher attack bonuses, but there's not very much progression. HP never increase for instance. A weak monster is always the same threat even if your PC is 10th level! Granted, that you probably will have a couple pluses on your dice, and some extra moves that can largely negate said monster, but if you go hack-n-slash with an orc and you're level 10 it CAN gank you pretty hard with a little bad luck!

Obviously HS and such would change that equation in some fashion. You might need to introduce some escalation in hit points, at least for monsters. DW already does have higher hit points for 'big baddies', so that wouldn't really be a significant change, it just might need to be widened a bit. As-written DW has a certain element of 'grittiness' that it is emulating from classic D&D which you'd be ironing out.

I'd almost create a separate PbtA for this. You could definitely riff off of DW a bit, but why not skew it from dungeon crawly adventures to more 'epic' stuff?

Actually, this is a bit off-the-wall, but have you read the FATE Accelerated 'Gods & Monsters' mini-rpg? I think that would be a very cool model for a PbtA!

 

[Garthanos]

DW is also pretty much totally 'FLAT', you do get some higher attack bonuses, but there's not very much progression. HP never increase for instance. A weak monster is always the same threat even if your PC is 10th level! Granted, that you probably will have a couple pluses on your dice, and some extra moves that can largely negate said monster, but if you go hack-n-slash with an orc and you're level 10 it CAN gank you pretty hard with a little bad luck!

That is a bit of bummer... Not familiar enough with the system.

Can we make that the ORK a bad ASSED captain orc possesed by a Nazgul or something

RuneQuest that we have been talking about wrt damage resistance for armor ... feels that way at times since even a slup can luck out and take down the baddest hero if the dice go the wrong way.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

That is a bit of bummer... Not familiar enough with the system.

Can we make that the ORK a bad ASSED captain orc possesed by a Nazgul or something

RuneQuest that we have been talking about wrt damage resistance for armor ... feels that way at times since even a slup can luck out and take down the baddest hero if the dice go the wrong way.

DW will let you make up anything. Just create a 'stat block' for 'bad assed nazgul orc' and give it more hit points, a high damage expression, etc.

DW is a 'players roll all dice' game. So when the 'hack and slash' move comes up, the player makes a check and either he hacks and slashes, or he GETS hacked and slashed (or some of each possibly). PCs can also defend another and that can result in taking damage.

The point is, its not like D&D where the 10th level guy laughs at the orc because he's now AC-2 and has 68 HP and only misses AC5 on a 3 AND gets several attacks per round (each of which probably does enough damage to autokill and orc).

 

[Manbearcat]

I was never that fond of escalation dice. It seems like a kind of a blunt instrument of game design. Clumsy. [MENTION=6696971]Manbearcat[/MENTION], your suggestions for DW seem feasible, at least to first glance. I'd think there'd have to be some reworking of a bit of the math, like damage vs hit points is going to change.

DW is also pretty much totally 'FLAT', you do get some higher attack bonuses, but there's not very much progression. HP never increase for instance. A weak monster is always the same threat even if your PC is 10th level! Granted, that you probably will have a couple pluses on your dice, and some extra moves that can largely negate said monster, but if you go hack-n-slash with an orc and you're level 10 it CAN gank you pretty hard with a little bad luck!

I'll have to refamiliarize myself with my thoughts in this thread. I don't have the slightest idea off the top of my head of what I was referring to!

However, just a quick response to the 2nd paragraph here. I don't exactly agree that DW is "pretty much totally FLAT."

I've run a game from 1-10 w/ 4 different melee playbooks; Arcane Duelist, Barbarian, Dashing Hero, Fighter. Each of those guys scaled plenty vs the game's content, it just looks different than classic D&D scaling:

- x-axis scaling is VERY significant in DW and unlike classic D&D, martial characters have parity with spellcasters on the x-axis.

- You get an ability score point every level. This can end up (a) increasing your HP by nearly 25 % and (b) not-insignificantly, positively affecting the bell curve of your archetypal shticks.

- Armor is DR. 1 point at 1st level can easily turn into a huge 4 points at 10.

- Damage adds and riders moves due to magical weapons and playbook moves. You can effectively double your damage or have combat tricks that do things like cleave.

- Hirelings and Companions can impact your move math positively (Defy Danger, Hack and Slash, Defend, etc), or give you access to fictional positioning or moves you wouldn't have otherwise.

Take the Fighter in my game, for instance:

Started with the following:

* 23 HP. Ended with 28.
* Gained the ability to completely shrug off damage and take a debility instead.
* Started with +2 to Hack and Slash. In most cases, that ended up +4 (due to Hireling and another move).
* Started with +1 to Defend. Ended with a +4 in most all situations and +3 in all and, most importantly, riposte damage went from 1 to 10!
* Several Defy Dangers went up by +1 or more (several by +2).
* Armor went from 1 to 4.
* Damage went from 1d10 +1 w/ 2 tags to 1d10 +1 + 1d8 +1d4 w/ 3 tags and piercing 2.

That isn't even getting into the x-axis scaling which gave them narrative control in combat and scaled the character's ability to impact noncombat conflict resolution by a significant amount.

The other 3 martial characters were similarly endowed. 1st level martial characters in DW are equivalent to 1st level 4e characters. They're extremely robust and up to the task of slaughtering canon fodder en masse. The difference between those 1st level characters and their 10th level self is probably comparable to opening Heroic Tier vs end-game Paragon Tier in 4e.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

I'll have to refamiliarize myself with my thoughts in this thread. I don't have the slightest idea off the top of my head of what I was referring to!

However, just a quick response to the 2nd paragraph here. I don't exactly agree that DW is "pretty much totally FLAT."

I've run a game from 1-10 w/ 4 different melee playbooks; Arcane Duelist, Barbarian, Dashing Hero, Fighter. Each of those guys scaled plenty vs the game's content, it just looks different than classic D&D scaling:

- x-axis scaling is VERY significant in DW and unlike classic D&D, martial characters have parity with spellcasters on the x-axis.

- You get an ability score point every level. This can end up (a) increasing your HP by nearly 25 % and (b) not-insignificantly, positively affecting the bell curve of your archetypal shticks.

- Armor is DR. 1 point at 1st level can easily turn into a huge 4 points at 10.

- Damage adds and riders moves due to magical weapons and playbook moves. You can effectively double your damage or have combat tricks that do things like cleave.

- Hirelings and Companions can impact your move math positively (Defy Danger, Hack and Slash, Defend, etc), or give you access to fictional positioning or moves you wouldn't have otherwise.

Take the Fighter in my game, for instance:

Started with the following:

* 23 HP. Ended with 28.
* Gained the ability to completely shrug off damage and take a debility instead.
* Started with +2 to Hack and Slash. In most cases, that ended up +4 (due to Hireling and another move).
* Started with +1 to Defend. Ended with a +4 in most all situations and +3 in all and, most importantly, riposte damage went from 1 to 10!
* Several Defy Dangers went up by +1 or more (several by +2).
* Armor went from 1 to 4.
* Damage went from 1d10 +1 w/ 2 tags to 1d10 +1 + 1d8 +1d4 w/ 3 tags and piercing 2.

That isn't even getting into the x-axis scaling which gave them narrative control in combat and scaled the character's ability to impact noncombat conflict resolution by a significant amount.

The other 3 martial characters were similarly endowed. 1st level martial characters in DW are equivalent to 1st level 4e characters. They're extremely robust and up to the task of slaughtering canon fodder en masse. The difference between those 1st level characters and their 10th level self is probably comparable to opening Heroic Tier vs end-game Paragon Tier in 4e.

Hmmm, it never seemed quite so impressive to me. I mean, yes, you improve, but again, the same old weaker monsters CAN still hurt you, and not just 'a scratch', taking 10 points of actual damage is fairly ugly. Maybe you have enough 'get out of jail free' cards and DR and such that it won't worry you to nearly the degree it would in a D&D-like. Still, in 4e a high paragon character can only be hit by an orc on a 20 (at best), AND has roughly 7x more hit points than he did at level 1 (maybe even over 10x more for characters that started with low CON). The orc simply cannot do significant damage unless the character stands around and doesn't bother to deal with it. 10 orcs wouldn't represent any bother to a 20th level 4e fighter, he can just walk away from them. In DW that wouldn't work at all...

 

[Garthanos]

I'll have to refamiliarize myself with my thoughts in this thread. I don't have the slightest idea off the top of my head of what I was referring to!

However, just a quick response to the 2nd paragraph here. I don't exactly agree that DW is "pretty much totally FLAT."

I've run a game from 1-10 w/ 4 different melee playbooks; Arcane Duelist, Barbarian, Dashing Hero, Fighter. Each of those guys scaled plenty vs the game's content, it just looks different than classic D&D scaling:

- x-axis scaling is VERY significant in DW and unlike classic D&D, martial characters have parity with spellcasters on the x-axis.

Breadth seems the realm which is hardest because magic can do literally anything being unreal. And Figuring out BDH fighters are als unreal seems a blocker.

- You get an ability score point every level. This can end up (a) increasing your HP by nearly 25 % and (b) not-insignificantly, positively affecting the bell curve of your archetypal shticks.

- Armor is DR. 1 point at 1st level can easily turn into a huge 4 points at 10.

- Damage adds and riders moves due to magical weapons and playbook moves. You can effectively double your damage or have combat tricks that do things like cleave.

- Hirelings and Companions can impact your move math positively (Defy Danger, Hack and Slash, Defend, etc), or give you access to fictional positioning or moves you wouldn't have otherwise.

Abdul and I were discussing recently that a 2e/1e fighter should have been given a Squire at level 6 or 7 to coincide with mages getting their bigger guns to keep that character combat relevant somewhat longer.

Take the Fighter in my game, for instance:

Started with the following:

* 23 HP. Ended with 28.
* Gained the ability to completely shrug off damage and take a debility instead.

Was thinking something like that for a direct of where to take Afflictions in 4e land.

* Started with +2 to Hack and Slash. In most cases, that ended up +4 (due to Hireling and another move).
* Started with +1 to Defend. Ended with a +4 in most all situations and +3 in all and, most importantly, riposte damage went from 1 to 10!
* Several Defy Dangers went up by +1 or more (several by +2).
* Armor went from 1 to 4.
* Damage went from 1d10 +1 w/ 2 tags to 1d10 +1 + 1d8 +1d4 w/ 3 tags and piercing 2.

Some of that sounds pretty subtle, but all combined potent. Piercing gets past armor I assume.

What does a Defy Danger do?

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Breadth seems the realm which is hardest because magic can do literally anything being unreal. And Figuring out BDH fighters are als unreal seems a blocker.

DW is hard to compare with D&D-like games. In PbtA games each character has 'moves' they can perform (in DW there are common moves plus class-specific moves, many of which are 'pick on at each level from a list'). Since DW spells are just moves there's no clear superiority of 'wizards' over 'fighters'. The moves either might have are equally generalized and potentially fantastical in nature. Since DW relies pretty much entirely on fictional positioning, as adjudicated by the GM, to decide what happens or what is feasible, its hard to say that 'spells' are more generally applicable than anything else. In fact, oddly enough, spells tend towards a bit more niche use than other moves, since they have tighter thematic constraints. In D&D 'fireball' has a lot of thematic and mechanical constraints, but its very concrete, it can be applied in a variety of situations and its affectivity is high (it really blasts and burns things, hard to achieve by other means and blasting/burning is a frequently useful result). OTOH DW moves tend to be things like 'Defy Danger', or 'Holy Protection' or something like that. Not that wizards aren't powerful, just that the fundamental calculus of wizard superiority in D&D doesn't apply in DW.

What does a Defy Danger do?

You can take the Defy Danger move whenever you are threatened by something (fictionally). If you try to dodge falling rocks, you would Defy Danger (DEX). Failure might result in damage and non-progress, conditional success might be damage with progress, and total success (10+) would mean you avoided all the rocks and got where you wanted to go. Its actually a tricky move to use properly, but it is supposed to be used 'When you act despite an imminent threat or suffer a calamity', so its really ideally something the player actively gets into, but sometimes it could be a sort of 'saving throw' kind of a situation. I highly recommend against doing too much of the later as it tends to make the game too reactive. In any case on a 7-9 (partial success) "the GM will offer you a worse outcome, hard bargain, or ugly choice." So it should be up to the player to pick from different choices, maybe like "you can cross the cavern but some rocks will hit you" or something like that.

DW breaks GM moves up into 'hard' and 'soft'. Depending on the situation Defy Danger would most often be a response to and perhaps provoke a 'hard move' (something that can directly effect the PCs right now, like an attack). However, DD is also applicable to social situations and whatnot, where it is usually a sort of 'choice to escalate' and might provoke 'soft' moves (something which forces the story further into conflict and represents a new challenge or obstacle for the PCs).

 

[Manbearcat]

AA has a great post immediately above which answers most things, so I’ll just throw a few supplementary words out.

Abdul and I were discussing recently that a 2e/1e fighter should have been given a Squire at level 6 or 7 to coincide with mages getting their bigger guns to keep that character combat relevant somewhat longer.

Absolutely. Bigger and broader guns (hirelings and companions or squads of them) in order to offset Wizards ridiculous inherent scaling.

Was thinking something like that for a direct of where to take Afflictions in 4e land.

Debilities give you -1 ongoing to an Attribute (eg “Concussed” -1 Wisdom) until a condition/trigger is met to alleviate the Debility. So, you’re on point! Effectively the same as 4e’s Afflictions/Diseases.

Some of that sounds pretty subtle, but all combined potent. Piercing gets past armor I assume?

You got it; the value is the number of armor bypassed! Tags are things like 4e’s keywords. They denote range of use (eg “Arm’s reach, no more or less”) and special qualities (Hack and Slash with Dex, Knocks things back it off their feet).

 

[Garthanos]

Absolutely. Bigger and broader guns (hirelings and companions or squads of them) in order to offset Wizards ridiculous inherent scaling.

I was thinking a squire at level 7 which basically allows more attacks allowing 1 more non-weapon proficiency and periodically aids your saving throws and 1 more attack when you hit level 11. In other words step it up several notches. The squire can be disabled but rarely dies when it does so it was leaping in front of an attack which might have killed you (you hit zero hit points and your squire takes the killing shot), when it does replacements soon show up at your door. But you might spend a time as a berserk (and get extra attacks periodically from that like after you hit half hit points) because maybe you get angrier without your buddy to bolster you from the darkness. Or make being a Berserk an alternative from having a squire.

Also give that level 9 Lord "calling in reinforcements" perhaps as a daily ritual like thing that goes up in uses as you level not just potency because ridiculous inherent scaling. --> reminder to self finish working something of that sort into martial practices (Opportune summons of bonded fighters aka the oath of fealty practice turned into a prepared/rehearsed use).

And that squad who is your personal guard which you can station various places make them pretty badassed so you really can use them.

Not that I like nailing character archetypes down that tight but given the 1e design paradigm.... and offering Berserkergang as an alternative.

 

[Garthanos]

Heck ideas for fixing 1e have atleast got to hit the stinks category since the subject matter is 4e .... LOL