Thumbs Down to 3.5 Edition


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Interesting. Not that I agree with your assessment of 2e and think that the contrast adds nothing to your case. The 1e->2e conversion was a bit like the 2e->3e convsion (albeit on too small a scale), removing much unesssesary and unused clutter from the game.

To the point of the article. A major point I think that is worth considering that you did not discuss is that of the change in the combat resolution rules to all but require minis. The square base rule Sean Reynolds quantified as a major change to handle a few corner cases.

The rules now specifically state minis are required, much to the concertation of those who do not play that way who will now feel like they are swimming upstream against the rules changes that highlight the new emphasis on minis.

An example of a seemingly innocuous (but baffling rules change) in this vein: the cover and concealment rules. It used to be that the coverage of cover or concealment determined the modifier or miss chance. A simple rule and it worked, all a DM had to do was decide what coverage was and apply it.

But the new rules rely on the "corner tracing" rule with minis to determine cover, which is boiled down to a binary tabulation now. If a DM wants to be more descriptive, it's now an uphill fight unless you keep your old rulebooks (assuming you had them in the first place.) This is a serious crimp in the style of those who prefer to have more descriptive control over the game than the minis provide.
 

You missed one important point, at least to me. 3.5 forces you to relearn everything. I despise that. Other than that, it's an ok article.
 

I don't like the presentation of your article. You include four basic types of complaints:
* meta (no playtester credits) -- things that don't change gameplay
* timing ("Unnecessary Rules Changes") -- things appropriate for full revisions, but that you didn't tghink were needed for a partial revision
* terminology (subdual damage)
* substantial

The "unnecessary rules changes" are annoying, but if that's all they are, they're not a reason to avoid the new books -- though they're certainly not a reason to pick them up. Metacomplaints should be addressed by the company (lacking credits, lined text, binding...) but don't, by definition, affect the gameplay.

Weapon sizes -- I see this as an unnecessary change at worst. What problem do you have with it? In general, it works the same as 3.0 (though the terminology is different).

I didn't like the terminology changes, but let's face it: it's the remaining problems that matter and that make or break the case. Here's what seems to be left:

  • Paladin mounts: I agree with you here
  • Power Attack: I don't think the new rule is particularly complicated. I haven't used it long enough to check for balance, but at least it will widen the range of usefulness for the feat (that is, times you can use the feat even when it will drop your chance to hit).
  • Spells (darkness, fly, hold, disintegrate, bull’s strength, teleport): I think there should be versions like the older ones that are higher level, as fantasy doesn't come with D&D-equivilent level. The spell changes are just rebalancing the system -- which I don't see as a bad thing.
  • Polymorph: I'm in shock that you think this was changed "for no particular reason". I banned this from my game, even though I allowed haste in unaltered. It was the most powerful kill spell and a potent buff. 3.5 split the spell into two parts, restricted both, and moved one up in level... as they should have done.
  • Mass cure * wounds: 3.5 didn't introduce them, it just standardized them. Healing circle is in the 3.0 PH.
  • "Now player spellcasters can make any item in the rulebooks.": This hasn't changed from 3.0 -- PCs can make any non-artifact.

Edit: Really, I'm not trying to argue for 3.5 so much as I am trying to get you to spend more space on the gameplay changes (and if I'm really lucky, less on the rest -- or at least segregation for gameplay/other).
 
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Enjoyed reading your article. I guess it strikes me as odd that you review detailed gaemplay aspects of a version of a game which you seem not to have played, or even read particularly closely. Especially when one of your concerns is lack of playtesting of that game.
Additionally, while your points are certainly reasonable, there are a number of ways that the changes can be regarded as valuable ones, and your piece does not really weigh them before reaching a conclusion, I think.

I happen to agree completely with your view of magic items in the newer versions of the game. However, I don't think 3.5 made the situation more than slightly worse, and you don't refer to anything in the latest addition specifically, as far as I noticed.

I think the 3.5 version is a slightly better game, all things considered. I remain ambiguous, though, on whether it is better enough to justify creating it so soon after 3rd edition. I am playing using the SRD with no intention of buying the books, myself, hardly an ideal situation.

Cheers
 

Before I comment, I would like to tell you where I am coming from. I like the changes to 3.5 for the most part and I feel that it is a marked improvement from 3.0. As to older versions of DnD, I played both 1st and 2nd editions (the latter including the various rules supplements) as well as classic DnD (Basic/Expert/Companion/Masters Sets). At the time I played the older versions, I enjoyed them greatly. But seeing the elegantly streamlined rules in 3.0, I would never go back to these archaic systems.

OK, onto your review:

1. No Playtester Credits

I can assure you that playtesters did, in fact, exist for 3.5. The fact that they chose not to credit them is regrettable, but doesn't affect the quality of the product itself.

2. Unnecessary Rules Changes

Weapon Sizing: I agree with you here, I much preferred the 3.0 system.

Damage Reduction:

I must disagree with you here completely. The 3.0 DR system was flawed on many levels. The first was that the magnitude of DR (typically 20 or more) made attacking the monster with inferior weapons useless. For instance, they may as well have used the 2nd edition convention for Iron Golems (e.g. "requires +3 or better weapon to hit"). The DR values in 3.5 have been reduced significantly. Therefore, if you do not have the appropriate weapon you can still make a difference. Having playtested the new DR extensively, I can assure you that our party has not suffered greatly when fighting creatures with 10/silver or even 15/silver DR even though we did not have silver weapons.

Furthermore, later in the article you bring up the "fantasy mythic" feel that seems to have been lost from 3.5. IMO, the DR system is much more representative of this fantasy feel. If you are fighting lycanthropes for example, you should be penalized if you don't use silver weapons, the classic Achilles' heel of these monsters. Why even bother with silver in 3.0 if you had a simple +1 sword?

Challenge Ratings

These changes were needed to make the game challenging. True 3.0 claimed that PCs were stronger, but ultimately this proved to be too true. Fighting evil Oustiders in 3.0, especially those in the high CR range, was largely a joke due to their inferior hit points and attack bonuses. 3.5 made the CR more in-line with the power of the monster and elevated truly powerful foes such as the Balor and Pit Fiend.

Paladin Mounts

I agree with you somewhat here, but unfortunately it was a necessary change. Equine mounts are simply not suited for dungeon travel and it seems silly for the paladin to leave his horse outside the "ruined temple" every time. Furthermore, the mount is a significant class feature of the paladin and its utility should be a principle concern when trying to balance this class.

Subdual damage: They changed it to nonletha? So what?

Spell Focus: A lot of debate over this one. I'm neutral on the issue.

Power Attack: Before, a raging half-orc Barbarian with a two-handed greataxe had the same power attack/damage ratio as a halfling rogue using two daggers. A welcome change in 3.5.

Major Spell Alterations

I don't agree with all the changes but ultimately it became about balance. Spells like Polymorph, Fly, and Disintegrate simply made the game too easy for arcane spellcasters.

Fantasy Flavor Removal

IMO, this is the core of your argument and it is where, I believe, many of your criticisms originate. I play DnD to have fun, not for a "fantasy" simulation. I want all PCs classes to be balanced with each other. To do this, you may have to make some unwelcome changes. But I, for one, am glad that they did it. I really disagree with you on item creation however. This is one of the great strengths of 3.0 and 3.5. The ability to craft your own items gives PCs tremendous flexibility. Now you can actually spend your gold pieces, unlike 1st and 2nd ed.

Breakdown of "Open Gaming"

Clearly, WotC could have made it easier on the competition, but they didn't. The stronger companies like Green Ronin will adapt, come out with alternate products (like Malhavoc), or go under. I can live with that.
 

re

Psion said:
To the point of the article. A major point I think that is worth considering that you did not discuss is that of the change in the combat resolution rules to all but require minis. The square base rule Sean Reynolds quantified as a major change to handle a few corner cases.

The rules now specifically state minis are required, much to the concertation of those who do not play that way who will now feel like they are swimming upstream against the rules changes that highlight the new emphasis on minis.

we haven't used minis yet and probably never will. We use graph paper, but we have always used some kind of map. I don't really understand how anyone ever played without a map with any edition. We have always used graph paper maps and they work just as well in 3.5 as in any previous edition.

An example of a seemingly innocuous (but baffling rules change) in this vein: the cover and concealment rules. It used to be that the coverage of cover or concealment determined the modifier or miss chance. A simple rule and it worked, all a DM had to do was decide what coverage was and apply it.

I do prefer the old cover and concealment rules. Andy may be right that the cover and concealment he listed is used most often, but it was still nice to have the other options listed for those rare anomalies.

But the new rules rely on the "corner tracing" rule with minis to determine cover, which is boiled down to a binary tabulation now. If a DM wants to be more descriptive, it's now an uphill fight unless you keep your old rulebooks (assuming you had them in the first place.) This is a serious crimp in the style of those who prefer to have more descriptive control over the game than the minis provide.

Hasn't hurt us at all. Don't really see the problem.
 

Heh. As I like both 3.5 and 2ed, I'm not gonna comment too much. However, when you talk about the money systems, I disagree, as it is cool to have money that is applicable anywhere, so that D&D doesn't suddenly become a purely Medieval European game. Also, if you want a certain currency in your game, just house rule a name change, same with subdual damage
 

"the changes in 3.5 have almost entirely originated with the in-house designers, and almost never resemble now-common house rules or points which have been publicly called out for fixes"

- I disagree with this entirely, the changing ('rebalancing') of spells in 3.5 was practically my wish-list of what I wanted done. The changes to Harm & Heal were _exactly)_ my existing house rule. The change to the buff spells (risiculously overpowered in 3.0) and to Haste were exactly what was needed to prevent Clerics, Wizards and Sorcerers totally overshadowing the non-spellcaster PCs. Polymorph always sucked (for the DM), ever since the game began, and it was high time they fixed it (although I believe Alter Self has reintroduced some problems).

Once I got used to the idea that PCs could make and buy magic items, that seems to work ok, and hasn't changed since 3.0. If anything having the ancient crone lay an enchantment on the hero's blade (Hong?) is more flavourful of heroic fantasy than the dungeon-loot-only approach of previous editions. The good thing in 3.5 was that they limited the item-buff spells also (thinking GMW in particular) so that they no longer make items unneccessary.
 

When 3.0 appeared we adopted it wholeheartedly.

The arrival 3.5...

Well, the next game will be a quarter-breed amalgation of rules. A hodge podge. A mish mash.

In other words, this is a return to the splitting of the game into a multitude of fragments. This time, I doubt that it will ever reforge itself into a single cohesive whole.

It is too similar to the old rules, and yet too radical changes in certain areas. To many questions "why".
 

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