Thumbs Down to 3.5 Edition

-- Mass cures: Healing Circle was 3.0 (and earlier editions as well IIRC), so this isn't anything new (only improved). And it is magic, not herbs, and powerful magic at that. You can expect a little of that. Imagine a prayer for the wounded and god himself touching them to heal them.
I found this one rather amusing myself. If I go to the prototypical work to divine (pardon the pun) the "classic" effects of divine magic in Judeo-Christian tradition (the model for clerics) - the Bible (specifically, the Old Testament) - I find what would translate into D&D terms as... gasp.... a mass cure spell in the book of Numbers, Chapter 21, vv. 4-9.

I will leave it as an exercise to the reader to read the actual passage, but this definitely provides - to me, anyway - the classic archetype for a mass cure spell - or at least a mass neutralize poison spell - with no requirement of touch! To complain that such a thing is new to fantasy or mythological or religious literature and is a computer-gaming effect is silly - as mentioned, it appears in the seminal work for defining powers attributed to a Judeo-Christian priest.

--The Sigil
 
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"It’s striking how much this resembles the case of AD&D 2nd Ed. – in 95% of the text it resembled the prior edition"

Ok, I am with you on the superiority of the 1E material over the poorly thought out mess that 2E became, but you really must not have given the 2E books a solid read through or something because they were far from 95% of the original text, and in fact the presentation and everything was very different.

2E started out decently. I was one of the Gygax guys back then, very upset at the loss and still loving the game, until 2E started to really roll along. What was 2E really? It was 1E with all the rules in the Wilderness GUide, Dungeoneers GUide and Unearthed Arcana trimmed down, rewritten and clarified, put into three books, including the atrocious Monstrous Compendium idea. Some of the less than great rules were done away with, like comeliness and HUGE amounts of classes, replaced by Kits (GROAN) that were a mixed batch of powergamer goodness and roleplayer sweetness, but never the twain shall meet.

2E was much more than a reprint of the old books, as a 95% would indicate. Maybe 2E revised, sure, that would indeed be a 95% reprint of the original 2E or the revised 1E books.

As to some of your complaints:

Challenge ratings needed to be increased in some places and decreased in others, and they were. A CR 7 Dragon in 3.0 annihilated a group of 7th level pcs, when it should have been an even challenge, not having them run in fear or die. That has been fixed. Some monsters were just easier than their Challenge Ratings idicated.

Damage REDUCTION was a cool idea and 3.5 really made that idea that much cooler to be honest. I can certainly understand your problem with the changes, but when you have a party of 6th level PCs they all seem to have magic weapons and the 9CR werewolf I just sent them after was a real wuss in comparison. You complain about the removal of fantasy flavour in one sub topic and previously argue about the changes in the Damage REDUCTION system, and the changes are based on MYTH AND FANTASY. You contradict yourself man, do you want to be able to slay a werewolf without breaking a sweat even though he should be tearing flesh from their rotting corpses or do you want the mythological beast that inspires fear in both the NPCS and PCS?

Subdual Damage, non-lethal damage... semantics man. COnsider this, 3.0 and now 3.5 (especially) were designed to attract new gamers to RPGs and DnD in particular. Now the project has been a big success but mostly in attracting older roleplayers and the Storyteller fanatics have converted in droves in my area, but not a lot of new people are getting into gaming. The terminology of gaming is very thick, especially with DnD, making it hard for new players to get into the game. Lets make it a little easier to explain so we don't have to have a huge glossary. Does the common man understand the word subdual? Probably not and it is a reference to a mechanic no longer used in the game. Subdual damage was damage dealt when fighting dragons back in the pre AD&D days. Non-Lethal damage doesn't require a definition because it is a self defined word. Lethal means killing, non mean not, so NonLethal is Not Killing damage. But hell, it is a semantical arguement.

Your complaints about magic items is irrelevant because it has been there for 3 years and is actually a nice innovation. Most of my players won't create magic items because of the cost in gold and the XP cost being somewhat high. I think that the inspiration for mythologizing magic items should be the GMs job and not a books. I rarely use the random charts for creating magic weapons and armour etc. I create them using the examples in the DMG as inspiration. That is what a DM is supposed to do. The abandoning of magic items because they don't do what you need at the time or are weaker is a HUGE problem with DnD style play. You find a +2 sword and you are carrying your father's ancient +1 sword, sure, you are going to abandon the heirloom or quit using it altogether. Been a problem since 1E.

The debate on Open Gaming is really pointless unless you are a publisher, having a huge impact on games only in options available as opposed to just the WOTC material. OGL affects very few gaming groups I know of, my group the only one in my area that extensively uses D20 STL products from companies other than WOTC. A lot of groups only want to use OFFICIAL material for some reason. Wanting to protect its Intellectual Property is only natural on the part of WOTC, allowing Mordenkainen, the names of the gods of Greyhawk etc could hurt them, causing trademark loss and resulting in lack of control over that intellectual property, in much the same way that Kleenexx is no longer the property of the Kleenexx corporation. Greyhawk is still profitable, or potentially profitable. Part of my excitement for 3.0 was that Greyhawk looked to be getting more support as to me GH=DnD more so than any other world. Sadly they let that horse get away and focused on FR, but GH could easily return and become a profitable company. Taking D20 into trademark protects the license itself from being abused or confused with other less than reputable products.

Jason
 

Wow, I had totally missed the changes to the paladin's mount. Blech!


Frankly I wouldn't be using 3.5 if my friends weren't. There a few things worth taking, but thats about it.
 


Thanks to everyone who has taken the time to reply -- I really appreciate your observations, guys.

Let me make a few responses to items that have come up more than once, which perhaps got miscommunicated in the essay. First, I'm not going to discard the emphasis on non-direct-gameplay issues: largely I'm worried about the culture of D&D, its support for past 3.0 products, and its chances to be healthy in the future. There's a lot of signs with 3.5 that WOTC failed to manage it properly, and that bodes ill for the future. The amount of rules changes is fracturing the playing community. The unnecessary rules changes (e.g., spell changes) have broken compatibility with the existing body of 3.0 publications, and I think that's a very damaging issue.

Second, the parethetical comment about a changed economic system is just a long-standing "wish list" item on my part. I certainly don't think it should have been part of 3.5.

Now, I may have somewhat mangled the part about magic item creation. The thing is, as I've sparred over in the rules forum on occassion, there are two very distinct issues about magic items: (1) crafting of magic items detailed in the book by players, and (2) invention of brand-new items by players. I totally agree with everyone else that the 3.0 crafting rules (#1) are great, and they have not changed with 3.5. The problem is that there's confusion about the distinction between #1 and #2, and I was hoping that 3.5 would rectify that confusion by clearly stating that newly-invented items (#2) have the status of house-rules, are fundamentally subjective in price, and are definutely not "official" (and/or include research pricing as for new spells, etc.) Unfortunately, that didn't happen, they retained the "magic item pricing table" without comment, and that signals to me that in a future ruleset magic items will be entirely a la carte. (It's something Monte Cook, for example, originally argued against on his website but has now further developed in "Arcana Unearthed".) I think that's a really bad idea, and that it feeds directly into the Fantasy-Flavor Removal issue.

Finally, I tried to express that my most important point was actually the last one, the Breakdown of Open Gaming. Note that this has nothing to do with the profitability or competitiveness of 3rd-party d20 publishers; that's not part of my concern whatsoever. Maybe it's just that I'm a computer guy who has followed the Open-Source development model of Linux and the GPL very closely -- but in 2000 Ryan Dancey explicitly said that the OGL was put in place to mimic the community development which exists around the GPL. That is, a very public system for community tinkering with the source material, and formal processes for returning changes to the original owner and the next update, strengthening the material as time goes on. It's the failure to do this which is my biggest disappointment with 3.5, and where I once felt excited about the OGL, now I feel deceived. With 3.5 WOTC has demonstrated that they're not interested in putting anyone's ideas in play except for their designated in-house designer, and sure enough, there seem to be per-capita a greater number of errors and glitches in 3.5 than in 3.0. (Consider the errata #1 which admits there will always be contradictions between different core rulebooks.) Use of the OGL doesn't look anything like the GPL, in direct contradiction to what was advertised with the advent of 3rd Edition. That's really a lost opportunity, I think.

Anyway, thanks again for reading and your thoughts.
 

dcollins said:
The amount of rules changes is fracturing the playing community. The unnecessary rules changes (e.g., spell changes) have broken compatibility with the existing body of 3.0 publications, and I think that's a very damaging issue.

[...]

Finally, I tried to express that my most important point was actually the last one, the Breakdown of Open Gaming.
I think the fact that you complain about a fractured gaming community in terms of what rules they use, and then turn around and complain that WotC isn't embracing the OGL philosophy is pretty rich.
 

On the whole requiring minis angle...

It's a financial move on WotC's part which if successful will keep us from having to buy 4E three years from now.

Put simply, they are trying to find a way to make money off of DnD that is more profitable than putting out core rulebooks every few years.

If they can get us to all buy the minis, they can slow down on the revisions.

Put that way, I feel compelled to support the miniature line. Unfortunately...

The random aspect makes me have zero desire to invest in their miniatures. Nevermind the fact that I prefer high qualiy sculpts and painting them myself... Even if I did not, if I found plastic prepaints acceptable I would still have issues due to randomization.

That said, I hear they are planning some non random packs and if they do I may just pick them up to suppliment out the 'back ranks' of large scenes, because I'll do just about anything to keep them from putting out yet another edition too soon. :rolleyes:
 

From my own personal observation, I think your essay largely misses the point. While 3.5E contains a large amount of material which many of us think is objectionable in one form or another, much of that material is a logical extension of the philosophy underlying 3E.

The philosophy underlying D&D 3E is to minimise the effect of Rule 0. I'll reiterate that in bold, varied slightly for emotional impact: The philosophy underlying 3E is to remove the DM from the game. Accordingly, game balance must be inherent in the ruleset, as the DM no longer plays the role of arbiter on all things.

D&D 3.5E is simply a logical extension of the philosophy underlying 3E. The majority of changes in 3.5E can rationalised as changes to ensure that the DM did not have to "fix" balance issues with the 3E ruleset. Changes to spells, changes to cover and concealment, changes to damage reduction, changes to magic item creation pricing, etc., are all examples of the drive towards "rules that need no umpire to adjudicate". Again, remove the DM from the equation and have a ruleset which has an inherent balance.

If the thesis of your essay was "Why 3.5E is the last nail in the coffin of the quality Dungeon Master", I'd support it wholeheartedly. At the moment it's a series of examples of the above without bringing it together as a coherent whole.

Cheers, Al'Kelhar
 

Dcollins,

You mention the a-la-carte mode of item creation as a bad thing. Do you agree that it's valuable for a DM to be able to help calculate price for a magic item from a standardized formula? It certainly helps for the DMs that really don't have an idea on how to price them.

In my game, most all of the players also DM. We all try to run off the same ruleset so we're not saying things like, "well, Bob does this rule this way, but we're in John's game who does it another way." It's only natural for us to go into the DMG and make up an item that we want our characters to have. And it takes away from the sense that the DM is on this power trip that decides who gets what and at what price, which may be, by differing opinions, entirely non-consistent with the last ruling he made on price. Hopefully, you can understand that issue.
 

Al'Kelhar said:
The philosophy underlying D&D 3E is to minimise the effect of Rule 0. I'll reiterate that in bold, varied slightly for emotional impact: The philosophy underlying 3E is to remove the DM from the game. Accordingly, game balance must be inherent in the ruleset, as the DM no longer plays the role of arbiter on all things.
Let me see if I have this straight. Are you saying that you want a rule system with out rules because rules get in the way of your arbitration over every game aspect?
 

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