Thunder and Fang

[KiloGex]

I have a fighter that is very interested in this combination, as she is already using the Earth Breaker. However, I'm running into a bit of a complication here.

Before taking the feat, how can the Earth Breaker and Klar be used together? With the Earth Breaker being a two-handed weapon, theoretically this should be an impossible combination. I have thought about the mechanics of it, wielding a medium-sized two-handed weapon in one hand with a -6 penalty (-2 for inappropriate size and -4 for unfamiliar) but that just seems absurd.

Any ideas?

 

[Traveon Wyvernspur]

According to the Thunder and Fang, the character needs to weapon focus on both weapons and have twf as prereqs.

If you look under TWF:

Circumstances Primary Hand Off Hand
Normal penalties –6 –10
Off-hand weapon is light –4 –8
Two-Weapon Fighting feat –4 –4
Off-hand weapon is light and Two-Weapon Fighting feat –2 –2

Now let's look to weapon focus which is part of the requirement. She would gain a +1 attack bonus to each weapon for having this effectively making it -1 primary and -1 off hand. Then you add in the -2 for the Earth Breaker being a 2h weapon and being used as a 1h weapon as you pointed out. In the end she gets -3 primary hand and -1 off hand when you factor in the feats and prereqs needed.

I don't see any problems with this as long as the prerequisites are met. I certainly don't see it as being absurd especially in a fantasy setting.

For more ideas, look at the Titan Mauler Barbarian Archetype, this allows them to use large weapons eliminating some more penalties as well.

 

[Systole]

Until you have the feat, you can't use the earthbreaker and the klar together. According to RAW (about 2/3 the way down the page), "Two hands are required to wield a two-handed weapon effectively." The feat allows you to circumvent this rule. You pretend the earthbreaker is a MH and the klar is a light OH.

Now, your question is, "How does it work prior to getting the feat?" According to the book, it doesn't. Period, end of story. You can't TWF with an earthbreaker.

However, if your question were, "Yeah, but that sucks, because the rules are keeping me from playing neat character concept and having fun! So how should I houserule this so I can play a neat character concept and have fun?" In that case, I'd probably say -2/-6 if you have the TWF feat. Basically, you're swinging the big honkin' hammer, and then trying to get a quick backhand slap in with the klar afterwards. So your main swing is slightly less effective (going from 1.5 STR to 1 STR because of TWF) because you're worried about the set-up for the backhand, and then the secondary swing is really tough to pull off until you've "practiced enough" (i.e. gotten the feat). Mechanically, it's not so bad that your character would be completely hamstrung without the Thunder and Fang feat, but you'd be much better off with it.

 

[KiloGex]

Thanks for the input! I was planning on letting her use the combo w/o the feat ahead of time in order for the character to get used to it before she becomes proficient with the feat. However, I just didn't really know how to mechanically work it. But, with these I'll definitely be able to come up with some numbers for her, thanks!

 

[Salthorae]

According to the Thunder and Fang, the character needs to weapon focus on both weapons and have twf as prereqs.

If you look under TWF:

Circumstances Primary Hand Off Hand
Normal penalties –6 –10
Off-hand weapon is light –4 –8
Two-Weapon Fighting feat –4 –4
Off-hand weapon is light and Two-Weapon Fighting feat –2 –2

Now let's look to weapon focus which is part of the requirement. She would gain a +1 attack bonus to each weapon for having this effectively making it -1 primary and -1 off hand. Then you add in the -2 for the Earth Breaker being a 2h weapon and being used as a 1h weapon as you pointed out. In the end she gets -3 primary hand and -1 off hand when you factor in the feats and prereqs needed.

I don't see any problems with this as long as the prerequisites are met. I certainly don't see it as being absurd especially in a fantasy setting.

I like this except the Klar isn't a light melee weapon, so when wielding it in your off hand you're actually wield a one handed weapon in the off and a 2 handed weapon in the primary, so wouldn't you be at -5/-3 overall for primary/off-hand prior to taking the Thunder and Fang feat? -4/-4 (just TWF) +1/+1 (WF) -2/- (inappropriate size) = -5/-3

Once he took Thunder and Fang, the penalties would basically drop to -1/-1 and now the Earthbreaker/Klar count as a Double weapon which for the TWF counts as a one handed melee and a light weapon, with TWF and Weapon Focus... you're down to -1/-1. Before that however, trying to use both at one time is a terrible combat option!

 

[Traveon Wyvernspur]

You kind of confuse me with your post here @Salthorae

You say the same thing I do, but disagree with me in the same sentence, then you say in the final paragraph exactly what I said, except that I missed the part where it counts as a double weapon which makes my final calculation incorrect.

For the record, I agree that it's a terrible thing to try to do until all the prereq feats and the Thunder & Fang feat are taken. After everything is taken then it's pretty dang cool.

 

[Salthorae]

You kind of confuse me with your post here @Salthorae

You say the same thing I do, but disagree with me in the same sentence, then you say in the final paragraph exactly what I said, except that I missed the part where it counts as a double weapon which makes my final calculation incorrect.

For the record, I agree that it's a terrible thing to try to do until all the prereq feats and the Thunder & Fang feat are taken. After everything is taken then it's pretty dang cool.

Not trying to confuse! I agree with your approach, that it CAN be done before the Thunder/Fang feat is taken. What I disagreed with was your maths I suppose.

Before Thunder and Fang feat:
Earth Breaker = 2H weapon, to use in 1H = -2 "Inappropriate size" penalty
Klar = 1H weapon

Fighting with TWF, but a 1H weapon in your off hand is: -4/-4
Weapon Focus on each: +1/+1
Inappropriate sized weapon: -2 on Earthbreaker (primary)
Total: -5/-3

Your math made it look like -3/-1 before the Thunder/Fang feat, but I might have mistaken that.

After Thunder/Fang Feat:
Earthbreaker = 1H weapon
Klar = Light Weapon
TWF with Light Weapon in off-hand: -2/-2
WF: +1/+1
Total: -1/-1

Sorry to confuse by seeming to agree/dis-agree at the same time!

 

[Traveon Wyvernspur]

[MENTION=1095]Salthorae[/MENTION] I apologize if my math was wonky with how I went about it, sometimes I don't spell it all out the way that you did above.

In the end we get to the same conclusion about it being a good feat if every prereq is taken so we agree. I missed the part where the earth breaker was considered a 1h weapon in my first reading of the feat (Thunder & Fang) so that removes the -2 for inappropriate size. My math had it ending in -3/-1 and w/ the removal of the size modifier it does end up being -1/-1 as you stated.

Thanks for clarifying it for everyone better than I did!

 

[KiloGex]

...so wouldn't you be at -5/-3 overall for primary/off-hand prior to taking the Thunder and Fang feat? -4/-4 (just TWF) +1/+1 (WF) -2/- (inappropriate size) = -5/-3

I had been doing the math out and coming to a -6/-4 but hadn't taken into consideration the Weapon Focus. Thanks for reminding me of that, since it's a prereq for the feat anyway. It's all in the details sometimes.

 

[Salthorae]

Welcome!

It usually is in the details for stuff like this...

the details that are tucked and hidden safely under the bed and out of sight most of the time, but when you really need them, they're no where to be found!

Hope your player enjoys playing with their two mighty weaopns before they get the Thunder/Fang feat!