Tieflings of Melnibone

[JoeGKushner]

Or you'll note that D&D's alignment system is training wheels compared to how Moorcock presented Law and Chaos.

Especially since there was no real "good" vs "evil" and most of the focus was on law and chaos as concepts and more important, the struggle itself.

 

[Sir Brennen]

I'm going to have to read Elric.

Because tiefling is a Germanic sounding name, the ancient empire of the Tieflings will have Germanic overtones in my 4e campaign. It'll be like a "thousand year reich" (the Nazi reference is intentional ).

Read "The Eternal Champion", "Phoenix in Obsidian" and "The Dragon in the Sword" Moorcock novels for a good example of men vs. elves as ancient race and some Nazis thrown into the mix in the third novel

These aren't Elric books, but are about another aspect of The Eternal Champion (Elric is one incarnation.) I think he might make an appearance, though. He always seems to.

 

[Imp]

Especially since there was no real "good" vs "evil" and most of the focus was on law and chaos as concepts and more important, the struggle itself.

Honestly, I don't remember the books that well (especially towards the end of the arc) but weren't what little we saw of the Law powers relatively benign, especially compared to the ceaseless depravity of Chaos? I mean, the thrust of the story was a general failed attempt to "reachieve balance" as I recall, but there were still value judgments going on... or does the badness of the Law side get hashed out in some of the other Eternal Champion books or something?

 

[Elphilm]

Honestly, I don't remember the books that well (especially towards the end of the arc) but weren't what little we saw of the Law powers relatively benign, especially compared to the ceaseless depravity of Chaos?

Yes, but this was because Chaos was overwhelming the world. In a world where the Lords of Law would be dominant Chaos might seem like the better choice. There is an example in another Eternal Champion novel (whose title I can't remember for the life of me) of a world where Law has triumphed, and the result is a barren, unchanging wasteland.

Moorcock really drives home the point that Balance is not an active force in itself. In the short story "To Rescue Tanelorn" the Lords of Balance cannot make up their minds about practically anything. Balance can only be achieved by trying to maintain the struggle between Law and Chaos - both of the extremes are just as "evil" if they become dominant.

 

[jasin]

If they didn't have such freakish deformations I'd agree.

As it is, they look like servants of chaos.

Melniboneans are servants of Chaos, aren't they?

 

[jensun]

Melniboneans are servants of Chaos, aren't they?

Not really.

If you look at how they are presented in the novels as opposed to the RPG they are for the most part utterly decadent, inhuman, uncaring and alien to the humans of the Young Kingdoms. They havent really done anything to anyone for hundreds if not thousands of years and if left alone would probably have remained in a drug induced stupor until the world ended but the Young Kingdoms still rose against them and destroyed them.

Elric is certainly heavily linked to Arioch as his chaos patron but he also achieves the peace of Tanelorn. The relationship is more one of equals given he has the power to destroy Lords of both Chaos and Law.

 

[jensun]

Honestly, I don't remember the books that well (especially towards the end of the arc) but weren't what little we saw of the Law powers relatively benign,

Not really. An ecxess of Law was just as bad as an excess of Chaos although Myshella one of their greatest Champions is certainly far more benign than say Jagreen Lern or Yrkoon.

 

[jensun]

" The 4E Tieflings evolved from the corrupt nobility of an ancient, powerful human empire that trafficked with devils to increase their power. they make good Warlocks."

Sounds kinda like Elric.

Except that the Melniboneans arent human or descended from humans at all and were powerful due to their alliance without their relationship with the Chaos Lords.

The ancient Melniboneans also made pacts with the Animal and Elemental Lords which Elric calls upon throughout the series. He may give blood and souls to Arioch but his power is based on much much more.

 

[jasin]

Not really.

If you look at how they are presented in the novels as opposed to the RPG they are for the most part utterly decadent, inhuman, uncaring and alien to the humans of the Young Kingdoms. They havent really done anything to anyone for hundreds if not thousands of years and if left alone would probably have remained in a drug induced stupor until the world ended but the Young Kingdoms still rose against them and destroyed them.

Elric is certainly heavily linked to Arioch as his chaos patron but he also achieves the peace of Tanelorn. The relationship is more one of equals given he has the power to destroy Lords of both Chaos and Law.

And in this, he's atypical. Melniboneans as a whole are certainly a people aligned with Chaos.

 

[jasin]

Except that the Melniboneans arent human or descended from humans at all and were powerful due to their alliance without their relationship with the Chaos Lords.

Tieflings are creepy near-humans from an ancient empire that trafficked with demons.

Melniboneans are creepy near-humans from an ancient empire that trafficked with demons.

The specifics are different (for example, the semantics of "demon" or "devil" aren't the same between settings), but the general idea is very similar. There won't be perfect correspondence except in a game that specifically wants to model Moorcock's Melniboneans of the Elric books, which is not something 4E does.