I think that there is a failure to communicate around here. Technik's feat ONLY applies to Duration: Permanent spells. It's no improved permanency, since the spell is already permanent. The spell will never naturally end anyways, the feat simply makes it more difficult to artificially end the spell, and also gives a nonmagical means to end it. On account of this, I'd say it's spot on in all respects. I do agree with Seasong that it should be subject to large penalty instead of being outright impossible. I don't like Seasong's necromany spiel, but his clarifications are good.
'Till Death Do us Part....
- Thread starter Technik4
- Start date
seasong
First Post
Thank younameless said:
. And while I wouldn't call it a spiel (at length or extravagantly 
), that is why I wrote it as an optional bit of flavor for those it appealed to.As for the large penalty - it depends on whether you are looking for fantasy or fairy tale. In fairy tales, many things are outright impossible, and many abilities are absolutes (for example, "drink anything" would mean "drink anything, up to an including the ocean"). Personally, I prefer fantasy, so I'd go with a penalty (maybe higher than my original estimate, +20 or so?), but the feat works well as written for fairy tales.
GuardianLurker
Adventurer
Actually, this is the actual bit I'm objecting to - I don't consider "kill the caster" to be a weakening. And as originally written, that's the ONLY option.nameless said:
So in my mind, this is essentially a way to turn any Dur: Permanent spell (which includes any spell affected by Permanency) into an invulnerable plot maguffin. Indeed, it's even presented as such.
As written, a 9th level magician could create a curse that cannot be broken by an epic wizard! For a single level increase? This is definitely more powerful than Silent Spell or Still Spell. Or even, in my mind, Empower Spell. In some respects this just turns the power structure of the game upside-down.
As for "kill the caster", since it's presented mainly as an adventure hook, we can reasonably expect the caster to be EL+0 to the party, or even more. More likely more as the purpose of the (side?) quest will be to take the caster down to remove the spell. As a (persumably) climatic encounter, the caster (and flunkies) are going to be EL+2 or better. And more than likely this (side?) quest won't be "Walk down three doors to the Evil Wizard's Cottage" in duration, but more of a "Cross the Lonely Moors, Defeat the Hounds of Doom, and break into the Evil Wizard's Tower" duration.
In short, the proposed non-magical solution is likely to be Hard and Long.
Nope. I'm not buying it. Not at +1 Level.
Seasong: I like the necromatic overtones, but I'm not sure I want to limit the feat (as the list of usable spells is rather limited to start with). I do think that it can't be used with good intentions, so maybe require that the caster be evil? I'll have to think about that.
Nameless: Yes, I think you see what I was getting at, although now I see what Guardian Lurker was talking about. Thanks for clarifying
Guardian Lurker: Ah, so its a lasting permanency thats broken eh? First concerning the Fire Trap, it is not on any list with the feat because, its duration is "permanent till discharged". A lasting firetrap (if you choose to include it with the feat) cannot be dispelled. Hence if you detect a fire trap on a chest, you cannot merely dispel the trap and open the chest, you must find an ingenious way to open it without being hit by the fire damage. Regardless, its duration would become "permanent unless caster reduced to -1 hp, until discharged".
Concerning the Energy Substituted Continual Flame...heh, well its an interesting idea, but it is not an evocation nor does it have the [fire] descriptor. It is actually an illusion, a figment to be exact, and it doesnt give off heat (because it isnt real). It does manage to give off light. The neat thing here is an eccentric wizard who has continually lit his dungeon (thus negating one of the oft-problematic points of going into a dungeon for many races) however, when he is killed (presumably somewhere deep in the dungeon) all the lights go out, and the party's next adventure becomes getting out of the dungeon.
Your point about epic level characters is well taken, however this feat is not really designed with epic play in mind. To take a line from seasong, it is to create a "fairy tale" aspect in your d&d game. Hence, it should not be a side-quest to go hunt down the wizard, but rather that IS the quest. Perhaps an evil wizard has polymorphed all of the king's daughters into squirrels (out of revenge because he was an ugly suitor). Now you have to hunt him down and convince him to turn them back (with words or force).
I dont think its un-abusable, but it is a feat that should mostly rest in the hands of the dm. When a rules-lawyerish player asks "what do you mean I get the feeling my dispel magic didnt work, and its not because I rolled low..." you can show the player the feat. The character may not understand, but the player will. [Note: I know perhaps too many players like this...].
Considering the epic wizard who is plussed at the fact that his dispel magic didnt work, if it were modified for epic rules perhaps a caster with a caster level of more than 20 would have a (good) chance at dispelling it. The fact is that 9th level wizard gave up experience points to cast that spell, and any character that much higher level than him shouldnt have too much difficulty tracking him down and making him see it their way.
The more I think about the ramifications, the less sure I am it could work in a campaign-wide manner (as others have mentioned). Therefore, I would like to balance the feat. I have edited the feat in the original post based on the suggestions in this post.
Technik
Nameless: Yes, I think you see what I was getting at, although now I see what Guardian Lurker was talking about. Thanks for clarifying
Guardian Lurker: Ah, so its a lasting permanency thats broken eh? First concerning the Fire Trap, it is not on any list with the feat because, its duration is "permanent till discharged". A lasting firetrap (if you choose to include it with the feat) cannot be dispelled. Hence if you detect a fire trap on a chest, you cannot merely dispel the trap and open the chest, you must find an ingenious way to open it without being hit by the fire damage. Regardless, its duration would become "permanent unless caster reduced to -1 hp, until discharged".
Concerning the Energy Substituted Continual Flame...heh, well its an interesting idea, but it is not an evocation nor does it have the [fire] descriptor. It is actually an illusion, a figment to be exact, and it doesnt give off heat (because it isnt real). It does manage to give off light. The neat thing here is an eccentric wizard who has continually lit his dungeon (thus negating one of the oft-problematic points of going into a dungeon for many races) however, when he is killed (presumably somewhere deep in the dungeon) all the lights go out, and the party's next adventure becomes getting out of the dungeon.
Your point about epic level characters is well taken, however this feat is not really designed with epic play in mind. To take a line from seasong, it is to create a "fairy tale" aspect in your d&d game. Hence, it should not be a side-quest to go hunt down the wizard, but rather that IS the quest. Perhaps an evil wizard has polymorphed all of the king's daughters into squirrels (out of revenge because he was an ugly suitor). Now you have to hunt him down and convince him to turn them back (with words or force).
I dont think its un-abusable, but it is a feat that should mostly rest in the hands of the dm. When a rules-lawyerish player asks "what do you mean I get the feeling my dispel magic didnt work, and its not because I rolled low..." you can show the player the feat. The character may not understand, but the player will. [Note: I know perhaps too many players like this...].
Considering the epic wizard who is plussed at the fact that his dispel magic didnt work, if it were modified for epic rules perhaps a caster with a caster level of more than 20 would have a (good) chance at dispelling it. The fact is that 9th level wizard gave up experience points to cast that spell, and any character that much higher level than him shouldnt have too much difficulty tracking him down and making him see it their way.
The more I think about the ramifications, the less sure I am it could work in a campaign-wide manner (as others have mentioned). Therefore, I would like to balance the feat. I have edited the feat in the original post based on the suggestions in this post.
Technik
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GuardianLurker
Adventurer
PHB Erratta
Minor Rules quibble:
as of the PHB errata, Continual Flame is now an "Evocation (Light)" spell, not an "Illusion (Figment)". The change was made because a figment of a light source wouldn't actually produce light.
As for the rest, I only used the epic wizard to highlight the difference. It's just as true for a 20th level wizard and a 9th. But you knew that.
Me personally, when I need a maguffin effect like this, I generally use a (unique) magic item, especially created by the bad guy. I also usually make it one of a kind, and hide/destroy the research notes. That way I *don't* have to explain things in ways that become abusable.
And please note - I don't actually have a problem with the maguffin as a plot hook; as you said, it's a staple.
Minor Rules quibble:
as of the PHB errata, Continual Flame is now an "Evocation (Light)" spell, not an "Illusion (Figment)". The change was made because a figment of a light source wouldn't actually produce light.
As for the rest, I only used the epic wizard to highlight the difference. It's just as true for a 20th level wizard and a 9th. But you knew that.
Me personally, when I need a maguffin effect like this, I generally use a (unique) magic item, especially created by the bad guy. I also usually make it one of a kind, and hide/destroy the research notes. That way I *don't* have to explain things in ways that become abusable.
And please note - I don't actually have a problem with the maguffin as a plot hook; as you said, it's a staple.
seasong
First Post
A note on the spell list: there are more spells, below the list, which are also included - I just had notes for them. The complete list should read:
I had another thought, too. How about a secondary feat that allows you to bind the spell to someone else's life force? A wizard who works for an evil king, for example, might be asked to bind certain spells to the king instead of himself.
Regarding epic levels: Personally, I would simply rule that this feat does not apply to epic spells. If the epic spell caster uses a 9th level spell or under, this feat functions; if the spell caster uses a dispel seed epic spell, however, all bets are off.
It would also not be that unreasonable for epic level casters to develop this spell:
Death Loan: This spell traces an individual's life force, either from a piece of their flesh or spells (such as magic jar or those with lasting permanency) which tie into the individual's life force. When it finds the individual (which takes roughly 1 minute per mile of distance, to a maximum of 5 miles per caster level), it momentarily disrupts the flow of their life energy; in essence, killing them for less than a second. No permanent harm is done by this, but any effects which rely on the presence of the individual's life force end immediately, such as magic jar and those with lasting permanency..
Now for the rest of my comments..
I picked necromantic as an option because of the "tie the spell to your own life force" aspect. I threw out the innocent sacrifice option because of the "living spell" aspect. Of the two, the innocent sacrifice probably balances this in terms of PCs using it, and ensures that (with a few rare, willing exceptions) only evil people will use it for the most part.Technik4 said:
I had another thought, too. How about a secondary feat that allows you to bind the spell to someone else's life force? A wizard who works for an evil king, for example, might be asked to bind certain spells to the king instead of himself.
Regarding epic levels: Personally, I would simply rule that this feat does not apply to epic spells. If the epic spell caster uses a 9th level spell or under, this feat functions; if the spell caster uses a dispel seed epic spell, however, all bets are off.
It would also not be that unreasonable for epic level casters to develop this spell:
Death Loan: This spell traces an individual's life force, either from a piece of their flesh or spells (such as magic jar or those with lasting permanency) which tie into the individual's life force. When it finds the individual (which takes roughly 1 minute per mile of distance, to a maximum of 5 miles per caster level), it momentarily disrupts the flow of their life energy; in essence, killing them for less than a second. No permanent harm is done by this, but any effects which rely on the presence of the individual's life force end immediately, such as magic jar and those with lasting permanency.
It would work fine for mine
.
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Hashmalum
Explorer
Ok. If anyone is interested, here is my own take on the Lasting Spell feat, along with another feat and spell of my own devising:
Lifelong Spell [Metamagic]
You can cast spells that last as long as you do--no more, and no less.
Prerequisites: Spell Girding, Safeguard Spell.
Benefit: A lifelong spell has all the benefits of a safeguarded spell. In addition, the spell cannot be dispelled or altered by spells lower than 9th level as long as you are alive, but ends automatically when you die. You may dismiss the spell at will, regardless of your location relative to the spell effect. Only permanent spells may be made into lifelong spells; you may make a spell that can be affected by the permanency spell into a lifelong spell, but the spell receives only the benefit of the Safeguard Spell feat until the spell is made permanent. A subvert magic spell will turn a lifelong spell into a normal spell, but this will trigger the safeguard spell's alarm effect automatically (and you will receive the alarm even across planar boundaries in this case).
A lifelong spell takes up a spell slot one level higher than the spell's actual level and gains an XP cost of 250 XP per spell level (counting all metamagic feat spell level adjustments, including this one).
Designer's comment: I figured that since 9th level magic can potentially destroy even an artifact, it should be able to handle a lifelong spell as well. But since it costs XP and three feats, nothing less should do.
Safeguard Spell [Metamagic]
You know when someone tries to tamper with one of your spells.
Prerequisites: Spell Girding.
Benefit: When a magical effect alters the workings of one of your safeguarded spells, an effect similar to the mental alarm variation of the alarm spell notifies you that one of your spells has been tampered with and, in general terms, which spell it was (for example, "the symbol of death on the entrance to your treasure vault", "the fire trap on your spellbook", or "the geas never to steal from you on your butler"). The nature of the tampering is not indicated.
The mental alarm has no range limitation as long as you are on the same plane as the spell, but if you are in a dead magic area or an antimagic field, you do not receive the alarm (likewise, if the spell effect is surpressed by a dead magic area or antimagic field, the alarm is never sent out). The alarm will wake you if you are in a normal sleep, but being unconscious due to injuries, in an alcoholic stupor, or dead will result in you missing the alarm.
If the spell is dispelled in some way, this mental alarm always goes off. More subtle changes have a chance of going undetected; the caster of the altering effect makes a caster level check opposed by a caster level check made by you. If the other caster succeeds, the mental alarm does not trigger. For example, if a 18th-level invading wizard casts transcribe symbol on the above mentioned symbol of death, and the symbol of death has a caster level of 15, the mental alarm would not go off if the invading wizard's roll of 1d20+18 was equal to or greater than your roll of 1d20+15. If the alteration to the spell's effect was caused by some change in the workings of magic itself nearby and thus has no caster (such as the spell effect entering a wild magic zone), the alarm is automatic. A subvert magic spell can turn a safeguarded spell effect into a normal spell, but alerts the caster of the safeguarded spell if the caster level check fails.
The alarm never goes off if the spell terminates normally rather than the result of magical changes (for example, if its target dies and the spell cannot affect dead creatures, or the spell has a non-permanent duration and it expires). If the spell is removed by some magical but indirect means, such as polymorphing the subject into a form that the spell cannot affect, use the opposed caster level check as described above.
A safeguarded spell uses up a spell slot one level higher than the spell's actual level. You may only safeguard a spell that has a non-instantaneous duration.
Designer's comment: Whew! All these rules for a fairly simple concept. It grew out of the attempt to elucidiate game mechanics for a curse on a character mentioned in the 2nd Edition sourcebook Volo's Guide to the Dalelands.
Subvert Magic
Transmutation
Level: Sor/Wiz 9
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 10 minutes
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target:One spell effect
Duration:Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No
This spell alters a spell that has already been cast whose aura is visible to the caster with detect magic or a similar effect in such a way that it "forgets" its caster. The spell can no longer be dismissed by its caster (if it was a spell that was dimissible by its caster to begin with). The caster no longer automatically makes dispel checks against the spell. Spells that normally exempt their caster from their effects, such as arcane lock, fire trap, etc. treat their caster no differently than anybody else (they would be kept out by their own arcane lock or have their own fire trap blow up in their face when opening the trapped object). Spells that create or summon a creature or force that obeys the caster, such as summon monster I and Mordenkainen's sword, no longer obey the caster's orders; if such a created or summoned creature or force is mindless, it will repeat the last order given to it until it is no longer able to do so. Otherwise, the creature becomes uncontrolled and may act as it sees fit. Spells that always target their casters (such as mage armor) are automatically dispelled, with the exception of antimagic field (which is not affected).
If (unknown to the caster of this spell) there are other spell effects in operation on the area, creature, or object that the targetted spell effect has been placed upon, each of these other spell effects has an equal chance of being the target of this spell rather than the targetted spell effect.
Lifelong Spell [Metamagic]
You can cast spells that last as long as you do--no more, and no less.
Prerequisites: Spell Girding, Safeguard Spell.
Benefit: A lifelong spell has all the benefits of a safeguarded spell. In addition, the spell cannot be dispelled or altered by spells lower than 9th level as long as you are alive, but ends automatically when you die. You may dismiss the spell at will, regardless of your location relative to the spell effect. Only permanent spells may be made into lifelong spells; you may make a spell that can be affected by the permanency spell into a lifelong spell, but the spell receives only the benefit of the Safeguard Spell feat until the spell is made permanent. A subvert magic spell will turn a lifelong spell into a normal spell, but this will trigger the safeguard spell's alarm effect automatically (and you will receive the alarm even across planar boundaries in this case).
A lifelong spell takes up a spell slot one level higher than the spell's actual level and gains an XP cost of 250 XP per spell level (counting all metamagic feat spell level adjustments, including this one).
Designer's comment: I figured that since 9th level magic can potentially destroy even an artifact, it should be able to handle a lifelong spell as well. But since it costs XP and three feats, nothing less should do.
Safeguard Spell [Metamagic]
You know when someone tries to tamper with one of your spells.
Prerequisites: Spell Girding.
Benefit: When a magical effect alters the workings of one of your safeguarded spells, an effect similar to the mental alarm variation of the alarm spell notifies you that one of your spells has been tampered with and, in general terms, which spell it was (for example, "the symbol of death on the entrance to your treasure vault", "the fire trap on your spellbook", or "the geas never to steal from you on your butler"). The nature of the tampering is not indicated.
The mental alarm has no range limitation as long as you are on the same plane as the spell, but if you are in a dead magic area or an antimagic field, you do not receive the alarm (likewise, if the spell effect is surpressed by a dead magic area or antimagic field, the alarm is never sent out). The alarm will wake you if you are in a normal sleep, but being unconscious due to injuries, in an alcoholic stupor, or dead will result in you missing the alarm.
If the spell is dispelled in some way, this mental alarm always goes off. More subtle changes have a chance of going undetected; the caster of the altering effect makes a caster level check opposed by a caster level check made by you. If the other caster succeeds, the mental alarm does not trigger. For example, if a 18th-level invading wizard casts transcribe symbol on the above mentioned symbol of death, and the symbol of death has a caster level of 15, the mental alarm would not go off if the invading wizard's roll of 1d20+18 was equal to or greater than your roll of 1d20+15. If the alteration to the spell's effect was caused by some change in the workings of magic itself nearby and thus has no caster (such as the spell effect entering a wild magic zone), the alarm is automatic. A subvert magic spell can turn a safeguarded spell effect into a normal spell, but alerts the caster of the safeguarded spell if the caster level check fails.
The alarm never goes off if the spell terminates normally rather than the result of magical changes (for example, if its target dies and the spell cannot affect dead creatures, or the spell has a non-permanent duration and it expires). If the spell is removed by some magical but indirect means, such as polymorphing the subject into a form that the spell cannot affect, use the opposed caster level check as described above.
A safeguarded spell uses up a spell slot one level higher than the spell's actual level. You may only safeguard a spell that has a non-instantaneous duration.
Designer's comment: Whew! All these rules for a fairly simple concept. It grew out of the attempt to elucidiate game mechanics for a curse on a character mentioned in the 2nd Edition sourcebook Volo's Guide to the Dalelands.
Subvert Magic
Transmutation
Level: Sor/Wiz 9
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 10 minutes
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target:One spell effect
Duration:Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No
This spell alters a spell that has already been cast whose aura is visible to the caster with detect magic or a similar effect in such a way that it "forgets" its caster. The spell can no longer be dismissed by its caster (if it was a spell that was dimissible by its caster to begin with). The caster no longer automatically makes dispel checks against the spell. Spells that normally exempt their caster from their effects, such as arcane lock, fire trap, etc. treat their caster no differently than anybody else (they would be kept out by their own arcane lock or have their own fire trap blow up in their face when opening the trapped object). Spells that create or summon a creature or force that obeys the caster, such as summon monster I and Mordenkainen's sword, no longer obey the caster's orders; if such a created or summoned creature or force is mindless, it will repeat the last order given to it until it is no longer able to do so. Otherwise, the creature becomes uncontrolled and may act as it sees fit. Spells that always target their casters (such as mage armor) are automatically dispelled, with the exception of antimagic field (which is not affected).
If (unknown to the caster of this spell) there are other spell effects in operation on the area, creature, or object that the targetted spell effect has been placed upon, each of these other spell effects has an equal chance of being the target of this spell rather than the targetted spell effect.
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