Timing of a Fighters Mark as it applies to Feats

[babinro]

I'm not certain as to how the Fighter's Mark works with certain feats. Two feats in particular have come up as interesting for my particular build.

[FONT=&quot]Marked Scourge: : <MP2>: Add Wis Mod to damage rolls you make against enemies marked by you. <1/round>[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Goliath Crusher: <MP2>: Whenever you use a mace to attack a creature marked by you, you treat the mace as having the high crit property[/FONT].

Do these feats effectively trigger on every attack made, as the attack itself triggers the mark? Thus, every attack made with a mace will be a high crit attack?

Or, does the creature get marked after the attack resolves, meaning, that the high crit benefit does not actually apply until the 2nd time an enemy is attacked by my mace wielding fighter?

Any clarification would be helpful. I'm inclined to say it is the top one, as the act of rolling an attack roll seems to be all you need to do to mark a foe since the hit/miss doesn't matter. But I could be wrong.

 

[Mort_Q]

Every time you attack an enemy, whether the attack hits or misses, you can choose to mark that target.

My read is that the Fighter's target is not marked until the player resolves the attack and thus can't just attack, mark, and apply MS and GC all in one action.

 

[Skallgrim]

Given that you can (and indeed, are explicitly encouraged to, at points) roll attack and damage dice together, I believe that the benefits of these feats is not conferred to the marking attack, but only applies to attacks after that attack.

Note that there do exist in the rules things that occur when an opponent is selected as the target of an attack, which actually does occur before the attack and damage roll. Marking is not done at this point.

However, in the rules, it does actually break out "making an attack" from "applying effects". I think that honestly, the first feat could reasonably be expected to apply to the first marking attack, as the mark is made on the attack, and the damage is applied as an effect, which is sequential, at least in its presentation in the rules.

The second feat, however, says "when you make an attack on a target marked by you". The target was not marked by you UNTIL you made the attack, so it is more tenuous to argue that it was a marked target for the attack itself.

I'd throw this to CS (or see if they've already answered it), but until then, I'd just run it with the most conservative application (don't apply it until after you attack them once). It still seems quite useful that way (I know I'm doing that with Pinning Challenge, and it seems pretty nice).

 

[Shin Okada]

Combat Challenge says

"Every time you attack an enemy, whether the attack hits or misses, you can choose to mark that target."

Timing of marking is debatable. But AFAIK dealing damage and effects are part of an attack. As things usually happens in order as it is written, I say the entire attack (including damage and effects) are resolved, then the target is marked.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Combat Challenge says

"Every time you attack an enemy, whether the attack hits or misses, you can choose to mark that target."

Timing of marking is debatable. But AFAIK dealing damage and effects are part of an attack. As things usually happens in order as it is written, I say the entire attack (including damage and effects) are resolved, then the target is marked.

Right. The rules don't quite come out and say it, but effects granted by class features or feats are dealt with in step 5, after damage, where it says 'apply effects', and even if they are applied simultaneous to damage they aren't ALREADY in effect.

There are a very few feats (one of the early style feats IIRC that is in the 2009 Dragon Annual) that seem like they should trigger on a condition applied at that moment, but nothing says it DOES. There are also errata on a couple of feats that are clarifications saying the feat doesn't apply on the same hit (see Frost Cheese). But the question does still remain which way ALL feats are intended to work.

I think like most of 4e RAI doesn't follow one single consistent interpretation 100% of the time. My real argument with both of the OP's examples is that the marked requirement is meaningless if you assume it always triggers. Unless someone can explain another reason that text is there you just have to hit the enemy again to get the bonus! Its still a good feat to take.

 

[ahammer]

on a somewhat related point when does marked fury determine the effect of it.

is it when you 1st mark, start of that foes turn or is it always in flux?

 

[babinro]

Thanks for the responses, I believe I will go against my initial thoughts on the matter and play it safe until some solid evidence points otherwise. These feats effectively function on secondary attacks, after the target has already been initially marked.

A fine ruling, as the feats are by no means made obsolete as a result.

 

[Stalker0]

I run it as all the effects get applied at the same time, including damage.


So you slow, marked, and did 20 damage to the guy is all simulateanous, it wouldn't be to the next attack that you actually are hitting a marked target and so get the bonus damage.