Tip about getting female gamers...

[Arravis]

I agree and disagree.

I agree that not all women like to shop. I also agree to the concept that more women then men like to shop, on average. That doesn't mean that 100% of women like to shop, but as long as it's 51% or higher, the odds are in your favor that women do like to shop. (Interestingly enough, my gf doesn't like to shop in real-life, but does enjoy it in-game.)

One of the features of my DM'ing style is that I like to be prepared for most situations. The players suddenly do something that they think is totally unexpected, and when they do I pull out hand-outs or some other info on the very "unexpected" thing they are doing. I just like to cover my bases and to make sure that I have at least considered most of them before a game and have come up with contingencies, etc (I put alot of effort into not rail-roading my players).

In the last two years (after a long hiatous) of DM'ing, I've been caught off-guard and by surprise by some of the things the girls have done and come up with. I can DM on the fly ok, but I definately do better when prepared. So, before a game I plan things out and try to think of the things they might possibly do. I can ussually cover 95% of the bases when it comes to the guys, but I don't get those kind of results with the girls.

So I wrack my brain and try to think of all the things they might do. I have to use assumptions, stereotypes, etc to try to come up with something to help me out in those unexpected situations. I hope this better explains my situation, perhaps I'm just expressing my points incorrectly.

 

[Telgian]

Greetings all,

Some biased observations:


I don't care for biology lectures unless it is relevant to the game. This approach merely annoys me to no end. You annoy me, and I won't play with you. Simple.

I am me, and I can carry on a decent discussion on firearms or military tactics (ancient) -- or lecture about them if need be. I also indulge in conversations about topics not related to shopping or the sterotypical intrests of women. Those topics are boring to me, although intresting to other women. *My* tastes, thank you.

I game for entertainment. If a group is not fun (for whatever reason) I will not game with them.

If the game (ie. storyline) is intresting -- then I will play. This includes the combat aspects as much as the roleplaying ones.

Telgian.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Holy crap, everyone's gettin' all...personal.

The advice remains generally sound for getting *any* unfamiliar person into the game, especially if they are different from the rest of the group.

I probably would've responded the same way had someone wanted tips for getting guys into their games that were mostly female. Look for the nerdy types and don't let the sexual tension destroy the game.

Everyone should be judged on their own terms. It's not safe to assume that because most women make better parents than most men that all women are better than all men at raising kids. It's not safe to assume that because most 13 year old girls think Lance Bass is hot that all of them do. It's not safe to assume that just because some things liked by pop culture are crap that they all are.

Stereotypes and generalizations can be useful for an overall picture, and for letting you know what you may expect, but each case is drastically different. No one fits any stereotype perfectly, but some match it in one way or the other.

It's a lot harder, I think, to say what anybody may act like in the game than what they'd act like in real life. Because it can be so varied, so many different angles, so many different ideas, all thrown around and coming up roses. This is especially true of genders, since so much of what is associated with a gender is flexible in Western society.

I could generalize that "nerdy, bookish types generally play Wizards," but that doesn't mean that all dorks will always play wizards all the time. But it does hold true from what I've seen (one of the reasons, I think, that wizards are so well-supported in comparison to other classes...nerd types like D&D, so more play wizards than most other classes, making a bigger market for wizard-related material).

The only generalizations about how women play that I can make is that "they probably tend toward female characters" in the same way that male players tend toward male characters. It's not "they have a vagina, they must play women!" It's "you play what you know, and people usually play within their own genders."

I can't even say that "most of them enjoy story," because *everyone* I know enjoys the stories I weave as a DM, and I, frankly, would be bored if there wasn't a great plot tying these together. It's not a female-specific thing; I haven't met anyone who would be happy with "you encounter a bugbear. You kill it. You open the door. You encounter three orcs. They kill one of you." type of game.

Basically: girls are different than guys, but that probably doesn't affect gaming much more than the gender of the character, because nothing else in gaming really relates to what you really are in any way. I could probably talk about gender and biology and how that translates into modern-day roles in a stereotypical vein, however, with a realization that there are many exceptions and that stating something in general doesn't mean that it's absolutely true.

 

[Humanophile]

Arravis, I kind of see what you're saying, but for the purposes of this discussion it doesn't really matter. Yes, there are lots of trends among human behavior, and oftentimes you can pick up a lot from a few little details or know what will go over better. When you talk to a (generic) girl about your character, f'rex, talk about personality and background before cool tricks and game mechanics. But when you want to establish something more one-on-one, you're looking for individual differences, so you can cut loose the stereotypes more or less.

If your game were heavy on combat and dungeon crawling, you wouldn't look for a gamer just because she's female, you'd look for a gamer who likes kicking ass and taking names, and if that roiling ball of psychotic agression just happens to have two X chromosomes, so be it. If you want a girl in your game, trying to make your game girl-friendly isn't the way to do it. You approach them as prospective gamers or as friends, and if you enjoy their company in-game (out of game too if you want them around when the dice aren't rolling), game with them. The girls in your group aren't there because you let them shop, and and you didn't bring them into your game because they like shopping. You brought them in as friends, and if they happen to like shopping, they adapt to it.

Now I agree with you that men and women do think differently, I just don't see how it matters when you can pick and chose your players. There are girls out there who only like combat or detached, rational planning, so if that's your style of play, game it, pick up players who suit you, and while you won't have as many women as a group that lays on the background and interaction as thick as they can, it really shouldn't matter.

 

[Arravis]

Humanophile wrote:
**Arravis, I kind of see what you're saying**

I'm glad at least one person isn't willing to burn me in the bonfire of political correctness. Thanks.


**Yes, there are lots of trends among human behavior, and oftentimes you can pick up a lot from a few little details or know what will go over better**

That's all I'm trying to do. I'm not trying to judge men or women as better then the other, I'm not trying to say that ALL women do one thing or antoher... all I'm trying to do is prepare for scenarios I'm, as a male, not likely to think of.


**But when you want to establish something more one-on-one, you're looking for individual differences, so you can cut loose the stereotypes more or less.**

I'm aware that everyone, regardless of gender, is an individual. Two of the girls are my friends one of them is my girlfriend. I talk to them, I interact with them, I'm very open with them. I treat them as people and as equals.

The formation of stereotypes is critical to the human existance. It's how we try to predict behavior. Stereotypes don't have to be gender, race, etc. Such as "this arguement is a stereotypical Arravis arguement..." I'm an individual, but I fall into that stereotype (which you would form if you knew me ). There's nothing wrong with that. Such assumptions are one of the ways we survive and interact in the world. I have a stereotype that most people won't stab me with a knife when I first meet them, and I go along my day with that stereotype. Otherwise I'd be pretty nervous all day. It's basic psychology and it's an important tool.

As a DM I try to predict the behavior of my players, the only way to do this is with stereotypes. My individualized stereotypes work fine with the guys (I'm also sure that I'm throwing in gender ones there as well), but aren't so predictable on the gals. So I try to come up with concepts and ideas that allow me to better predict behavior.

If you're offended by it, my apologies, it's not my intend to offend you. It's simply a process I go through in creating a good game. And to some of you that I "ticked" off, I'm not asking you to be in my game nor would I want you to be, so have no fear.

My players are happy in my game, all at some point have told me I'm one of the best or the best DMs they've played with. I'm not claiming to be damn good... just good from their perspective. They have fun at my games cause I always go out of my way to make sure everyone has something to do they enjoy, and to set those situtations up you have to predict behavior to a certain extend and that means making assumptions and using stereotypes.


**you want a girl in your game, trying to make your game girl-friendly isn't the way to do it.**

I already have girls in my games and I'm not looking to get any new players. My statements weren't on how to "attract" girl-gamers to a game. I do think that D&D is definately much more guy friendly then it is girl friendly. I'm not trying to make my game's purely girl friendly, but I am trying to balance things out. As stated above, the simple fact that you get the most XP from killing a monster is something that leans on the male side. I don't give XP for killing , I give XP for overcoming challenges, however that's achieved. I also try to do alot of other things to balance things out. When the women in my group ask me why there isn't a single magical dress, but there is a ton of male-oriented magical clothing... am I supposed to pretend that D&D is totally equal?


**You approach them as prospective gamers or as friends, and if you enjoy their company in-game (out of game too if you want them around when the dice aren't rolling), game with them.**

I only play with people I am friends with, for me D&D is as much a social event as it is a game.


**The girls in your group aren't there because you let them shop, and and you didn't bring them into your game because they like shopping. You brought them in as friends, and if they happen to like shopping, they adapt to it.**

I don't ever force anything on them, I never push them towards "shopping" or any other such thing, it's something they do totally on their own. But I simply want to be prepared when they do something like that and it isn't covered in the DMG, PHB, the module or any other source. So since I'm not so great at "winging" it, I try to be prepared before a game and to have the info I need on hand. Which means I have to make assumptions on things they would like. Now, I can just say "Hey, girls think no different then guys, so what would I like to see? How about a gladitorial arena full of wizards who, regardless of level, can only use cantrips..." So I throw that in... and the girls pass by it and show no interest in it. I am simply trying to find ways to entertain my female players during the game and I am aware (and I think realisticly) that some of the things that I find entertaining they may not find entertaining.

I see them as different, different as individuals, as people and another of the ways they are different is that they are female, so I try to predict behavior based on that as well as a ton of other factors. I could just make games based solely on what I think is fun... but I suspect everyone in the group would get bored with that.


**Now I agree with you that men and women do think differently, I just don't see how it matters when you can pick and chose your players.**

I have picked and chosen my players and I do think it matters in game creation. See above issues on predicting player's behavior and if you DM, then you know that's critical.

Anyway... I apologize if I'm coming across as defensive, I just feel like some of the people here are simply reacting with political correctness and nothing more.

 

[Umbran]

So I wrack my brain and try to think of all the things they might do. I have to use assumptions, stereotypes, etc to try to come up with something to help me out in those unexpected situations. I hope this better explains my situation, perhaps I'm just expressing my points incorrectly.

Well, first off, I'll mention that I already noted about as strongly as I could, that my "you" wasn't intended as "Arravis-personally". It was "you-generic DM". You were presenting an example to grab onto, but I didn't, and still don't, intend to say that you're personally sinning, or something. Please stop taking what is stated as trying to be good, general advice for gamers as trying to tell Arravis that he's doing something wrong, ok?

Beyond that, *shrug*. I'm sorry, but I think you are overstating the "need" to use gender stereotypes. I haven't thought of any novel way to say why, though. If what I've said already doesn't make it clear, repeating myself won't either, so I'll leave it be.

 

[Arravis]

I suspect that part of the issue is that I'm coming across as basing my games solely on gender stereotypes, which far from the truth. I try to pull every single resource I have available to me when I do so.

And Umbran I know you're not personally attacking me or my DMing or any such thing. I think at least one of the persons that has posted though is pretty ticked off at my statements, but what's an opinion if it doesn't make at least one person mad .

 

[Ashtal]

Perhaps we're not reacting out of a matter of 'political correctness' but out of a belief, based on our personal experiences, that generalizing by gender (or anything else) gets you into more trouble than it appears to solve.

Please, when you say our arguements all boil down to political correctness, you are in effect calling us sheep. If you think that your personal experiences are enough to make your judgements, you can't then tell us then that our personal experiences are invalid or voiced only in the name of political correctness. That's not fair to us, or to the arguement.

IME, and in that of many here, treating women as something to be figured out, sleuthed out, tricked out, doesn't help on average. They don't want to be invited out of a sense of the guys wanting something to oogle, and they likely aren't going to join, or stay with your group, unless they enjoy what and how you play. They want to come to the table as a friend, to enjoy the night out with people, ya know? Just like the guys.

And above all else - ask them what they like. Why sit back and try to predict, when you can say, "Hey, you like intrigue in your storylines? Or do you like more sweeping, swashbuckling tales of great feats?" I have to ask my male players what they want out of a game. Why should the women get off and not be asked what they like?

 

[Arravis]

** you are in effect calling us sheep**

I don't think any of you are sheep, but I don't see how people can think there are no psycholigical gender differences.

**you can't then tell us then that our personal experiences are invalid or voiced only in the name of political correctness**

We all base our beleifs on personal experience do we not? My beleifs are just as much based on personal experience as are yours. I'm not claiming that mine is any more valid then anyone elses.

** treating women as something to be figured out**

I'm sorry that it bothers you that men are trying to "figure" out women, but from what I can see that's been happening as long as men have been men and women have been women. I suspect that's a fight you'll be in for a long time.

**They don't want to be invited out of a sense of the guys wanting something to oogle**

Additionally, I've never asked a girl to join our gaming group to oggle her or anything else like that, I simply do so cause they are a friend and I think it would be fun to play with them. I've not made any statements for you to come to that conclusion so I'm not sure what stereotypes you have about me... but I suspect they are incorrect.

**And above all else - ask them what they like**

I definately DO ask them, as I've stated in my previous posts several times. You might want to go back and read them before you make such statements.

 

[Ashtal]

When you toss around the phrase 'political correctness' against someone in an arguement, that's exactly what you are implying -that we are saying that because it's expected of us, not that we think it is true and rational.

Part of my statements in my last post were directed to the thread in general, as in general advice to people who want to expand their gaming group, preferably to members of the opposite sex, not to you in particular. The asking, the no-oogling, that's general advice. I'm glad you DO ask your female gamers, but I think many of us are trying to make the point that whether or not we are male or female doesn't mean there is a neat dividing line about what we will and won't like. (51% is hardly a majority since you'll be half wrong ALL the time, so how is that helpful?) But that by asking, you can find out, instead of merely guessing or anticipating. Some of your phrasing in your posts suggest more guess-work than ask-work at times.

Another thing to consider regarding the 'unpredicability' of women gamers is that many (but not all) come to the game as a newbie surrounded by people who are experienced with several years under their belts. They know the genre tricks, set-ups, the standard tactics, and so on. Because the new player is coming in fresh, they are going to be thinking in different ways, seeing different patterns, from the more experienced players. I've seen this among newbies, male or female, where because they aren't coming to the game with the gamer's mindset, they approach problems and obstacles in all sorts of different ways.

But this is one of those discussions where people have their opinions, and no amount of discussion will sway anyone the other way, or to a middle ground. My only general, to all, advice is to be open minded and ask them - it's the only way you'll know for sure.