Tired of having your players killing the BBEG without breaking a sweat?

[Blightersbane]

With the rare exception my players destroy the BBEG within a few rounds sometimes in the first. Is the proper CR BBEG not doing it for you? Sick of it? Does your BBEG poop out? Then kick him up a notch, BAMM! GESTALT YOUR BBEG!

I have in recent campaigns Gestalted my BBEG. I have for the 1st time in some while seen fear in the eyes of my players. The party no longer rushes in with a buff or two guns a blazing. They’re fearful of the unknown, tentative to charge, on their heels, uncertain of their decisions and spending more rounds buffing, speculating even arguing over “what do we do now” tactics. It has dramatically altered the ending to game nights. The players went from absolutely demolishing most properly leveled CR BBEG to having a true challenge. BBEG is no longer a 1 trick pony, now he is every bit a melee threat as a potent caster. With buff’s up he can tank it out or stand back and blast whilst summoning nasties and so on. It’s been my experience that the multiclassed BBEG is just bad at both.

This has been one of the most drastic decisions I have made for the BBEG and everyone is really enjoying it. Players are hanging around after game night talking about the BBEG and the implemented tactics. My main concern now is to tame the BBEG down a bit to avoid the TPK.


DM”S: Is this original? Or am I preaching to the choir?

Blightersbane

 

[Nail]

Lesse: "Increase the CR, and the challenge is tougher!"

Yep, I've heard that one before.

 

[KarinsDad]

Lesse: "Increase the CR, and the challenge is tougher!"

Yep, I've heard that one before.

However, this is a different flavor of that.

The gestalt 9th level Cleric / Rogue is still only casting 5th level spells (as opposed to 6th or 7th level for a more typical CR bump), but he is also doing Snaak Attack damage with his summoned creatures and taking no damage from Fireballs.

It is definitely an interesting concept, but I would reserve it only for the really campaign important reoccurring BBEGs and not most of them.

 

[Korak]

While I have no problem at all with the concept of a BBEG in the context of plot and story, they often come up short as a climactic battle for an inexperienced DM. The biggest reason for this is a tendency to have the BBEG not have particularly powerful minions that are present in the final battle. If the other participants in the "final fight" are relatively minor threats it often pays the PCs to totally ignore them, or use only a few actions for crowd control. This quickly puts the BBEG in a situation of 4 to 6 PC actions for each of his(or her) actions. This position is inherently untenable unless the BBEG is powerful enough to kill PCs every round or two to even the odds... or has a foolproof escape plan. Most DMs are not willing to make a BBEG that powerful, or if he is, are reluctant to put the killing blow down. They will spread attacks or change focus to spare PC lives and then a round or two later, the action imbalance is too much for the BBEG to overcome.

Facing a slightly different BBEG can make all the difference in a rewarding tactical challenge... say, twin brothers or sisters in place of a single BBEG, or a small cabal of classed NPCs, and evil circle of six? The balance in combat actions will make the combats much more interesting, and will allow a DM to ratchet up the challenge without having to kill multiple PCs , unless of course, they use horrible tactics and deserve to die .

 

[Stalker0]

The biggest reason for this is a tendency to have the BBEG not have particularly powerful minions that are present in the final battle.

This is the key right here. As levels start going up, actions become the most powerful tool you have. And one BBEG, no matter how powerful, has 4 times less actions than a 4 person party.

Now if you make a BBEG strong enough so that his actions are meaningful, that often results in one player after another getting annihilated, which many DMs don't want.

But if you include minions the BBEG gets more actions, without having to have more powerful actions. In the end, it normally makes for a better fight.

 

[frankthedm]

There must be minions! Speedbumps are needed so that the Barbarian / Paladin can't just charge the BBEG. The cleric needs to be tied up healing players who are getting nickled and dimed by semidecent mooks and Creating Water on those the players the mooks chucked alchemist fire onto. Make sure the casters have tasty formations of shlubs to nuke.

 

[geosapient]

While I have no problem at all with the concept of a BBEG in the context of plot and story, they often come up short as a climactic battle for an inexperienced DM. The biggest reason for this is a tendency to have the BBEG not have particularly powerful minions that are present in the final battle. If the other participants in the "final fight" are relatively minor threats it often pays the PCs to totally ignore them, or use only a few actions for crowd control. This quickly puts the BBEG in a situation of 4 to 6 PC actions for each of his(or her) actions. This position is inherently untenable unless the BBEG is powerful enough to kill PCs every round or two to even the odds... or has a foolproof escape plan. Most DMs are not willing to make a BBEG that powerful, or if he is, are reluctant to put the killing blow down. They will spread attacks or change focus to spare PC lives and then a round or two later, the action imbalance is too much for the BBEG to overcome.

Facing a slightly different BBEG can make all the difference in a rewarding tactical challenge... say, twin brothers or sisters in place of a single BBEG, or a small cabal of classed NPCs, and evil circle of six? The balance in combat actions will make the combats much more interesting, and will allow a DM to ratchet up the challenge without having to kill multiple PCs , unless of course, they use horrible tactics and deserve to die .

I had once made a NPC ettin. I gestalted it as a Barbarian / Druid. I took Still Spell as on of the feats and decided that with a 25 concentration check (base) could cast a spell while attacking.

 

[pawsplay]

When it comes to BBEGs, I go +1 to +5 CR over the PCs, and I shoot to kill. I try to make their attacks such that a successful round will only put a PC down, not instakill them, but accidents do happen. The thing that makes boss fights interesting is the dramatic tension, and that means the threat of death and conceivably even TPK.

 

[Sejs]

I've done the gestalt badguy thing once so far in my game. Had a necromancer/warlock villain who made use of plenty of rules from the BoVD, as well as Incantations from UA. The goal was to make the guy as radiantly evil as possible, and it did the trick quite well I feel.

I'd do it again, certainly, but it would have to be for the right villain. Not every Tom, Dick and Harry that warrants the title Boss should get it. Orc chieftan? He's just a cool orc. Doesn't need to be juiced that extra gallon and be made gestalt. Evil arcanist high priest that's a hair's breadth away from realizing his ambition of ressurecting the dead Goddess of Destruction, and who has been infused with power beyond the ken of most morals?

Yeah, he can be gestalt.


And I would like to echo the earlier mentioned call for mooks. Gotta have the mooks. A BBEG who thinks he can take on a group of adventurers all by himself, just because he's 3 or 4 CR higher than their average party level is soon to be lamenting his poor choices in the airport bar of the afterlife.

 

[pawsplay]

I would rather just tack on more levels then introduce gestalt and other hard to quantify effects. Doesn't a BBEG need more hp and higher saves anyway?

I have created villains who were designed to go solo, and did quite well in that capacity. In general, they cannot have weak hit points, and they will take feats to compensate for their weak saves. I think one place where people go wrong is designing archvillains around visual effects or specific prestige classes rather than basic utility. For example, a villain doesn't absolutely need Weapon Focus to be an expert with a weapon, nor does he need Improved Sunder just because he plans on sundering, etc. Similarly, a wizard-based Blackguard is going to end up feat-starved and further will have used some of his feats in a way that will rarely come up in game... wouldn't one level of fighter and some evil cackling have worked just as well?

My general philosophy is...

1. Identify what makes him a greater threat than other NPCs in the region, such as an army, a powerful artifact, or simply hating the PCs
2. Identify every ability he absolutely must have, and include them. For instance, an armored fiend needs a class that grants armor proficiency, and spellcasters need to account for all minions summoned, animated, or controlled. If he is built around abilities that are found only in a specific prestige class, weigh different builds and try to come up with something fairly optimal for that level.
3. Pile on the defense.
4. Add as many dirty tricks as you can think of.
5. Back off a bit once you come up with a nearly unbeatable way of killing the party, even without taking into account their specific weaknesses.

I wrote a livejournal post on this topic:

http://rjgrady.livejournal.com/13018.html