Titansgrave and why 5E needs a setting (or two) (and another take on a suggested product lineup)

I finally got a chance to watch Titansgrave. I saw 0, 1, and am about to watch 2.

I am enjoying the show.

I am curious about the rules system they are using. It seems like a simpler version of D&D, with some cues for shared story telling replacing the need for complex rules.

My impression is, it is a game system that is easy to pick up and put down. So, it is possible to play it spontaneously, almost like Pictionary. It works well for friends that can hang out once a week or so.

It was odd for me to see the absence of a d20, using 3d6 bell curve instead. They seem to have made it work. Embellishing the narrative whenever the dice rolls doubles is whimsical and cool.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

I'm curious what you mean [regarding] many baked-in setting assumptions that cannot easily be changed.
Baked-in setting assumptions include the Great Wheel, its gods, its alignments, and the cosmology in general. I find these intrusive organizing assumptions, impossible to escape from in too many pages in the core books.

In 5e, I am also finding the ‘weave’, and how this setting assumption defines magic, such as versus psionics, likewise intrusive and constraining. I was frustrated when a 5e D&D player insisted the Wizard class can never be used to make a psionic option, because it would contradict the ‘core’ setting assumption that the Wizard must be ‘arcane’ using the ‘weave’, thus ‘can not’ be ‘psionic’ using the ‘mind’. These kinds of setting assumptions kill my enjoyment of 5e.

Similarly, I resent the assumption of a ‘multiverse’, where all settings are ‘true’, because it forces unwanted and inappropriate settings assumptions to necessarily exist in every setting, albeit a distance away.

I want a return to the 1e ethic, where the players (DM and adventurers) are *supposed* to invent their own settings from scratch - for their own groups - without relying on the core rules to do the hand-holding or the heavy-handedness.

I want the setting gone from the rules.

Settings belong in a separate setting guide.

The current 5e Players Handbook deserves to be renamed the ‘Forgotten Realms Players Handbook’. When the Dark Sun setting comes out, it needs a completely different Players Handbook, with the same core rules rewritten and deeply reflavored with different setting assumptions, called the ‘Dark Sun Players Handbook’.

I dislike having to look up rules, only to be forced to adopt ‘wrong’ setting details that are dissonant and disruptive to the tone and outlook of the settings that I myself use.

I require a gaming system that it is setting neutral - unless in some unlikely event the setting is perfect so I love it in every way.

I require customizability of flavor.

At least until 4e, when references to gods became intrusive and ubiquitous, D&D core rules were once intended for use in any kind of setting.
 
Last edited:

I finally got a chance to watch Titansgrave. I saw 0, 1, and am about to watch 2.

I am enjoying the show.

I am curious about the rules system they are using. It seems like a simpler version of D&D, with some cues for shared story telling replacing the need for complex rules.
They're using the AGE system, which is basically the same as in Green Ronin's Dragon Age RPG (which is based on the CRPG's setting, but not the system).

Checks are made using 3d6 + stat (which is between -1 and +4 for starting PCs), possibly +2 if it's something you have special training in (not sure if the last bit is in AGE as well, but I think it is) against a difficulty. One of the dice is a different color - in Dragon Age it's called the Dragon die, and I'm not sure what it's called in generic AGE. It can be used to measure "effect" (higher on the dragon die = better result), and it's also used for stunts. If two or more of the dice show the same result (which is just under 50% chance) and your roll is a success, you gain stunt points equal to the Dragon die you can use for bonus effects.
 

Baked-in setting assumptions include the Great Wheel, its gods, its alignments, and the cosmology in general. I find these intrusive organizing assumptions, impossible to escape from in too many pages in the core books.
The DMG has rules and advice for making your own cosmology that is distinct from the Great Wheel. Plus, the Great Wheel has been standard to all D&D settings for many years, and is really much more Greyhawk than FR (which uses a tree layout as often as not).

In 5e, I am also finding the ‘weave’, and how this setting assumption defines magic, such as versus psionics, likewise intrusive and constraining. I was frustrated when a 5e D&D player insisted the Wizard class can never be used to make a psionic option, because it would contradict the setting assumption that the Wizard must be ‘arcane’ using the ‘weave’, thus ‘can not’ be ‘psionic’ using the ‘mind’. These kinds of setting assumptions kill my enjoyment of 5e.
It's really "a weave" and not "the Weave". They just went with a familiar descriptor. If it referred to the Weave of the Realms it would have been capitalized.
This can be seen on page 205 which is in a sidebar and thus separated from the main rules (and really set in the Realms).

I resent the assumption of a ‘multiverse’, where all settings are ‘true’, because it forces unwanted and inappropriate settings assumptions to necessarily exist in every setting, albeit a distance away.
Being overtly part of the same multiverse didn't stop Dark Sun, Mystara, Ravenloft, and Dragonlance from being very different.
Dragonlance, Eberron, and Dark Sun even have different planar designs.

I want a return to the 1e ethic, where the players (DM and adventurers) are *supposed* to invent their own settings from scratch - for their own groups - without relying on the core rules to do the hand-holding or the heavy-handedness.
Again, that's really in the DMG. The PHB is the baseline - which is fairly reminiscent of the 1st Edition PHB which contained a list of the known planes and diagrams of said plains in Appendix IV (pages 120-121), although the Great Wheel was more boxy. So the 5e books isn't new in this regard, just more detailed and expansive. Then again, it's 2 1/2 times the size of the 1e PHB.

I want the setting gone from the rules.

Settings belong in a separate setting guide.
The core rulebooks need some flavour. They cannot be entirely devoid of flavour and strictly rules. That's bland and makes for a dry read. Flavour text gets you excited for the content and generates character ideas. It's what hooks you as a player while you're still learning the rules.

The current 5e Players Handbook deserves to be renamed the ‘Forgotten Realms Players Handbook’. When the Dark Sun setting comes out, it needs a completely different Players Handbook, with the same core rules rewritten and deeply reflavored with different setting assumptions, called the ‘Dark Sun Players Handbook’.
They'd need to do that anyway. Even if the core rulebook was completely devoid of flavour. They would need to explain what a bard or wizard is like in Dark Sun. The existence or non-existence of flavour in the PHB is irrelevant and has no bearing on the work needed to describe the classes in Dark Sun.

Similarly, if your classes are different than the baseline the PHB adds nothing to your workload, as you would always have to describe those classes for your players. That information still has to be communicated. The difference is if you're NOT changing the lore, as the inherent flavour saves you a lot of work. It's super easy to say "just like in the PHB".

I dislike having to look up rules, only to be forced to adopt ‘wrong’ setting details that are dissonant and disruptive to the tone and outlook of the settings that I myself use.

I will not use a gaming system unless it is setting neutral - or in some unlikely event the setting is perfect so I love it in every way.

I require customizability of flavor.
That's great, but this has NEVER been D&D. It has never been a generic rule system like GURPs, Cortex, FATE, or AGE. If you want a game that's just rules then that's cool, but then play that system. And enjoy. There's no real reason to take a shot at D&D in the process.

D&D has always had a veneer of assumed flavour that has to be stripped away and ignored to make the game your own. From the choice or races (the existences of certain races, the absence of optional races, the inclusion of bonuses against races), design of the magic system (spellbooks and Vancian magic carry a lot of assumed flavour), and little details (such as elves not dying of old age but feeling a call to journey across the sea).
It's had less flavour or the flavour has been less overt, but D&D has never been a generic ruleset. Using the 5e rules to tell stories in your own world really isn't any harder than using 1e.
 

The DMG has rules and advice for making your own cosmology that is distinct from the Great Wheel.

The 5e DMG is an unsatisfactory solution to the intrusiveness and ubiquity of setting assumptions.

To rub salt in a 5e wound, even the section that is supposed to describe some alternatives to gods inside a Great Wheel *STILL* tries to talk the DM into having gods. For me that was the last straw for my hope in 5e. It was like the book 1984, where the alternative to the ‘system’ was itself a part of the problem.

Now psionics (which I love) seems to be in the 5e radar. If 5e publishes future psionics products - whose rules are easy to use in settings of my choosing, thus allowing me to replace the 5e core rule books - I will be interested in these psionics books.


Plus, the Great Wheel has been standard to all D&D settings for many years, and is really much more Greyhawk than FR (which uses a tree layout as often as not).
On this point, I generally agree. Greyhawk is the setting that first promoted the Great Wheel.


The Great Wheel, whether in the shape of a square, a circle, a tree, or orbiting dimensions, is the same unwanted and clingy cosmology.

In Advanced D&D (1e and 2e), all settings are strictly optional rules or entirely separate splatbooks. The rules themselves offered numerous suggestions to inspire the players, and actually required the players to invent their own personal setting to even make sense of the game. If there was a monster in the Monster Manual that seemed cool, then it existed in the setting. And if there was one that lacked appeal, then it simply never existed. The existence of rayguns or Lolth were equally likely, and depended entirely on whatever setting the players decided on. The Advanced rules were open and neutral - and often conflictive in a kind of stream of consciousness of neat ideas. There is no such thing as a ‘canon’.

The Greyhawk setting is probably the first prominent setting to feature the Great Wheel. The premise of this setting was to try reconcile each and every flavor that was thrown as a possible flavor in any official TSR product. The setting was largely a thought experiment to see if it was even possible to harmonize the myriad random suggestions. In its day, the feel of a comprehensive setting product was radical departure from the feel of the D&D 1e experience. Of course, in AD&D, Greyhawk was still a splatbook without any authority, and in the same category of any other setting, whether Dark Sun or Birthright. The assumption of early D&D is always, the players invent their own setting.
 
Last edited:

It's really "a weave" and not "the Weave". They just went with a familiar descriptor. If it referred to the Weave of the Realms it would have been capitalized.
There is no ‘weave’. Not in any way, nor shape, nor form. There is no weave in my setting. That isnt how magic works.

Worse, the insistence of a multiverse is offensive, because not only do the rules insist there is a weave, but somewhere in the multiverse, it objectively exists, and is even a goddess, no less. Elsewhere in the universe, this goddess exists even where people are ignorant about this objective fact.

There is no weave, there are no gods, there is no Wheel, they lack existence. My settings have nothing to them.


I use several settings. The only setting I use that has something like a weave, is my near future setting, where a future version of the internet is the access point for many technological wonders. However, conceptually this internet is unlike the FR weave. When the core rules try bake FR descriptions into my setting, the FR flavor becomes undesirable and objectionable.
 
Last edited:

I finally got a chance to watch Titansgrave. I saw 0, 1, and am about to watch 2.

I am enjoying the show.

I am curious about the rules system they are using. It seems like a simpler version of D&D, with some cues for shared story telling replacing the need for complex rules.

My impression is, it is a game system that is easy to pick up and put down. So, it is possible to play it spontaneously, almost like Pictionary. It works well for friends that can hang out once a week or so.

It was odd for me to see the absence of a d20, using 3d6 bell curve instead. They seem to have made it work. Embellishing the narrative whenever the dice rolls doubles is whimsical and cool.

You can download a free pdfs from Green Ronin's website of the Dragon Age quickstart. It's from Free RPG day a few years back. It has enough of the rules to get you through the included adventure, and some pregens.
 

There is no ‘weave’. Not in any way, nor shape, nor form. There is no weave in my setting. That isnt how magic works.

Worse, the insistence of a multiverse is offensive, because not only do the rules insist there is a weave, but somewhere in the multiverse, it objectively exists, and is even a goddess, no less. Elsewhere in the universe, this goddess exists even where people are ignorant about this objective fact.

There is no weave, there are no gods, there is no Wheel, they lack existence. My settings have nothing to them.


I use several settings. The only setting I use that has something like a weave, is my near future setting, where a future version of the internet is the access point for many technological wonders. However, conceptually this internet is unlike the FR weave. When the core rules try bake FR descriptions into my setting, the FR flavor becomes undesirable and objectionable.
It's the barest mention of the FR. Just a hair more than Greyhawk received in 3e and far less than the Points of Light setting received in 4e. And the book also regularly name drops other settings and worlds, giving little tastes of Dragonlance and Greyhawk, which is far more varied than any edition prior.

If you don't want the weave and gods then there's no weave and gods. Simple as that. Ditto the multiverse. If you want only a single world in the cosmos then that's all that exists. Period.
Every DM is free to make their own world and change the assumptions to be whatever they want. You can have The Weave, or magic drawing life energy, or arcane magic being regulated by the gods, or generated through bonds or bargains with an elemental beings, or something else. BUT for people who don't want to create a whole new variant of magic, spellcasting, and design of wizards it's nice to have an alternative; it's nice to have the work already done rather than being mandated to create everything.

The conventions of the game make altering some elements tricky. How the mechanics of magic work make it tricky to have magic based on naming and true names, or sympathetic magic based on connecting two objects. But that's been true of past editions too. Ditto clerics and gods. D&D has always had a "god problem" where deities are all but mandatory for clerics and paladins, without removing those classes. Even Dark Sun included gods, albeit with a different name in 2e. Because clerics are important in the game.
 


You can download a free pdfs from Green Ronin's website of the Dragon Age quickstart. It's from Free RPG day a few years back. It has enough of the rules to get you through the included adventure, and some pregens.

Thanks for the reference. I will check it out.

In other peoples experience, does this system have decently balanced mechanics?
 

Remove ads

Top