To all the other "simulationists" out there...

[mhensley]

If hit points are partly a measure of your "herosity" (not a realistic concept; but then the original design was not meant to be totally realistic) then that isn't necessarily true. Either you would never fully get the drop on Chuck or you'd do your worst and then your last thought would be "How did he survive that!?" as he roundhouse kicks you into the afterlife.

Now we're back to hit points being a Schrödinger's cat mechanic. Did I get the drop on him or did I just not hit him hard enough? It's all very awkward and requires a lot of handwaving.

 

[Korgoth]

Now we're back to hit points being a Schrödinger's cat mechanic. Did I get the drop on him or did I just not hit him hard enough? It's all very awkward and requires a lot of handwaving.

I consider that a feature and not a bug (although I'm coming from a OD&D/Classic perspective, long before hit point totals reached their present stratospheric levels).

Is it also a problem in a game where HP represent pure "structural integrity" (like BRP for example) that the game doesn't indicate, when I smash my mace into your torso, whether I broke any ribs, and if so how many, and whether any bone fragments entered you lung, etc.?

As a DM, I'm comfortable narrating the results of the die rolls. You pop a sneak attack on Chuck. Chuck obviously lives. Chuck turns around and kills you. Those are the facts. When you hit Chuck initially, maybe I'll narrate that his Chuck Sense was tingling and you only landed a glancing blow because he sidestepped, or maybe a Valkyrie dazzled you before you could land your blow and so it was merely a flesh wound, or maybe you drove your dirk into his back to the hilt but the blade obviously missed all of his vitals, if only by milimeters, etc. I'll just say whichever one sounds cool at the time.

 

[pawsplay]

Except that the rogue is 5th or 6th level, and the guard is a 3rd or 4th level warrior with a good con thanks to his hobgoblin heritage.

Assuming a 4th level warrior with the standard array and a hobgoblins' Con modifier (+2), you would have Con 14. That leads to having approximately 26 hit points. That is pretty formidable, although a critical hit could still take him out. Further, if the rogue sneak attacks, then wins initiative (which he likely will, thanks to his 16+ Dex and Improved Initiative), he strikes again, for at least 30 points or so of damage.

But that leads to three observations:

1. 4th level? According to the MM, that's as high as the leaders of most humanoid warbands.
2. Hobgoblin heritage? This guard sounds like he somewhat more than a redshirt, unless the army is surprisingly racially diverse.
3. The level difference is not as great as I was led to believe by the earlier description. A CR 3 NPC versus a single 6th level rogue is a fair challenge, and it is expected that such an encounter would be difficult to end suddenly and decisively. Going by the DMG guidelines, this is equivalent to EL 7 (effectively, four times fewer PCs, so two doublings), which would be expected to consume a significant amount of PC resources (i.e. hit points, or oils of poison).

 

[MichaelSomething]

Can we not argue about how tough the hobgoblin is? I posted his exact stats on post #172. I also talked about that hobgoblin is about the equivalent of a Marine. He is not a mook! The hobgoblin is not part of some random band of raiders. He is a member of a large and organized army.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Can we not argue about how tough the hobgoblin is? I posted his exact stats on post #172. I also talked about that hobgoblin is about the equivalent of a Marine. He is not a mook! The hobgoblin is not part of some random band of raiders. He is a member of a large and organized army.

And yet the question remains - should it be possible to knock him out in one hit if you surprise him?

Typical Action Movie logic typically implies yes. Real world might agree.
D&D does only for sufficient level differences, assuming sufficient amount of sneak attack damage.
So, is this enough? Would it feel more realistic/cinematic/believable if instant-knockouts where possible for non-Rogues/Assassins against most types of foes? Do the benefits outweigh the drawbacks, from a gameplay/balance point of view?

I don't have a general answer. I suppose there isn't one. That's why different people prefer different game systems..

 

[GreatLemur]

Can we not argue about how tough the hobgoblin is? I posted his exact stats on post #172. I also talked about that hobgoblin is about the equivalent of a Marine. He is not a mook! The hobgoblin is not part of some random band of raiders. He is a member of a large and organized army.

That is exactly what "mook" means in a game where the player characters are cinematic hero types.

 

[pawsplay]

Can we not argue about how tough the hobgoblin is? I posted his exact stats on post #172. I also talked about that hobgoblin is about the equivalent of a Marine. He is not a mook! The hobgoblin is not part of some random band of raiders. He is a member of a large and organized army.

So what? In D&D, a "knight" is a 1st level warrior, fighter, or aristocrat on a horse.

Anyway, there's your answer. This hobgoblins is played by Jean Claude Van Damme, and hence cannot be one-shotted by an exceptional but far from legendary rogue.

 

[roguerouge]

These are not mooks according to the module in question. They are the advance force of an army tasked to hold an important maneuver point. None of them are mooks. The OP DM got it wrong. The clue hammer to that fact is the presence of a dragon and two hell hounds.

 

[mmadsen]

So... to model this one-shot dynamic in DND, the rogue needs a mismatch in level and surprise. The less of a mismatch in ability between him and his target, the less likely the rogue is to be able to pull this off, eventually needing a successful critical on top of sneak attack damage.

There are a few important distinctions wrapped up in that.

For instance, we want a rogue to need a level mismatch to one-shot a guard in D&D, because of the nature of hit points: if you have a 50-50 chance to one-shot someone, you're virtually guaranteed to two-shot him. Being able to one-shot someone in D&D means vastly overpowering him.

Also, surprising someone, especially at higher levels, where the disparity between the rogue's sneaking skills and the fighter's noticing skills has grown, isn't particularly difficult, so it's overpowering to give the rogue too much of a bonus for achieving surprise.

But we can design the game to work more sensibly from a simulationist point of view and just as well, or better, from a gamist point of view.

Obviously the rogue's sneak attack can work just like the assassin's death attack, which goes against a Fort save. That way, the attack can have a good chance to one-shot a challenging foe -- and a good chance to do very little at all.

Or, if we don't like bypassing hit points, we can have the sneak attack do much more damage, but only if that extra damage is enough to one-shot a foe.

Also, we can add extra stealth-based requirements to the sneak attack. The assassin's death attack requires three rounds of studying the foe. That can work. Or we can require an additional set of hide and move silently rolls to qualify for a death attack.

So there are ways to boost the rogue's chance of one-shotting a foe without making the rogue more powerful overall.

 

[mmadsen]

If hit points are partly a measure of your "herosity" (not a realistic concept; but then the original design was not meant to be totally realistic) then that isn't necessarily true. Either you would never fully get the drop on Chuck or you'd do your worst and then your last thought would be "How did he survive that!?" as he roundhouse kicks you into the afterlife.

This brings up two good points. Hit points are a measure of plot-protection, but (1) anyone competent gets extra hit points, whether or not they're the hero or villain of the story, and (2) they don't provide plot-protection against anything except attacks that hit.

I think the system would work much more smoothly if hit points were eclipsed by action points, which (a) could be used against a rogue's hide and move silently rolls, a sniper's to-hit roll, etc., not just against damage rolls from hits, and (b) would only go to heroes and villains, not anyone competent.