To all the other "simulationists" out there...

[mmadsen]

If you're playing Amber, you decide.

If you're playing D&D, you roll the dice and you take your chances.

The story isn't determined by the will of either the DM or the players, or by 'what makes a good story' -- it's determined by choices (good or bad) and luck (ditto). Often, the consequences of an unexpected high or low roll make a better (more interesting, less by-the-numbers) story than one which was decided by pure narrative fiat.

I think we all understand that. The question isn't, What happens?, as in, How does D&D work? The question is, What do we want the rules to be?

So, again, what happens when a rogue gets the drop on a lone member of the hobgoblin Praetorian Guard? Should it be impossible to slit his throat? He's a great soldier, but he's neither the hero nor the villain of the story.

 

[Lizard]

I think we all understand that. The question isn't, What happens?, as in, How does D&D work? The question is, What do we want the rules to be?

So, again, what happens when a rogue gets the drop on a lone member of the hobgoblin Praetorian Guard? Should it be impossible to slit his throat? He's a great soldier, but he's neither the hero nor the villain of the story.

It's determined, somewhat in advance, by how the DM statted him up. That's where storytelling comes in -- when the DM creates the obstacles and decides how challening they are. If the guard is 5th level and the rogue is 10th, he is very likely to be killed. If he's equal to the rogue, then the DM made a decision that one guard was tough enough to challenge the whole party, and letting the rogue one-shot him, except by extraordinary luck, would not lead to the story the DM was setting up.

 

[pawsplay]

The guard stood there, unaware of the rogue, looking out over the surrounding area. But what could the rogue do? His only option was a sneak attack. So he did it, inflicting a nice chunk of damage. But the guard wasn't killed, and on his next action, he rang the bell.

The player became very frustrated, and rightfully so. The guard was a mook. A nobody. A "red shirt". But as we looked over his stats, there was no way the rogue could have eliminated him silently. He was a few levels lower than the rogue, but a "one-shot-kill" was still quiet simply impossible.

That's really strange. Even a 1st level rogue should be able to take out a 1st level warrior.

 

[mmadsen]

It's determined, somewhat in advance, by how the DM statted him up. That's where storytelling comes in -- when the DM creates the obstacles and decides how challening they are.

I think we can agree that it's an issue of how the DM stats up the challenges, how the players decide to tackle those challenges, and how the dice roll -- but another important element is how the game is designed.

And a big, if invisible, element of how the game is designed is how ablative hit points work. If a guard is at all vulnerable to a one-shot kill, then he's almost guaranteed to die to two shots. For the initial attack to have a 50-50 chance of killing him, it must average as much damage as he has hit points.

This is not true with a save-or-die effect, like the assassin's death attack. If a death attack fails to kill the guard, it's not because it did "just" 90 percent of his hit points in damage. He's not reduced to a tiny fraction of his hit points.

If he's equal to the rogue, then the DM made a decision that one guard was tough enough to challenge the whole party, and letting the rogue one-shot him, except by extraordinary luck, would not lead to the story the DM was setting up.

If a 5th-level Rogue meets a 5th-level Fighter in open combat, the Rogue is supposed to lose -- not 100 percent of the time, but much more than 50 percent. It's not a fair fight.

If a 5th-level Rogue successfully ambushes a 5th-level Fighter, the Rogue is supposed to win -- not 100 percent of the time, but much more than 50 percent. It's not a fair fight.

How exactly we want to implement that is up for debate, but I'd like to see a system where the Rogue has a decent chance of taking out the Fighter with one good sneak attack, and if that fails, the Fighter instead has the advantage, and they both know it.

 

[Twowolves]

We had come upon an enemy encampment. There was a guard tower, at the top of which was a guard on watch. He had a bell which he would ring if he saw anything. So the rogue hatched his devious plan. He drank an invisibility potion, scaled the outer wall of the tower, and stealthily sneaked up beside the guard. His goal was to eliminate the guard silently so the others could approach.

The guard stood there, unaware of the rogue, looking out over the surrounding area. But what could the rogue do? His only option was a sneak attack. So he did it, inflicting a nice chunk of damage. But the guard wasn't killed, and on his next action, he rang the bell.

He shoulda taken a level in Assassin. *nod*

 

[pawsplay]

I still want to know how a nameless, unimportant guards has more than 20 hp or whatever.

 

[mmadsen]

He shoulda taken a level in Assassin. *nod*

This begs the question of why the rogue's sneak attack is any different from the assassin's death attack.

 

[mmadsen]

I still want to know how a nameless, unimportant guards has more than 20 hp or whatever.

Not every member of every elite fighting unit is the hero or villain of our story.

 

[Shazman]

This is entirely beside the point, but couldn't the rogue have coup de grace'd the guard? It's been about 3 years, so probably I'm misremembering some nuance of the rules. But that's exactly what CdGs were made for, right? One-shotting helpless combatants and mooks.

Except the guard isn't technically "helpless". He'd have to be unconcious, held,or paralyzed to be helpless. Still, if the DM wanted the PC to succeed after his hard work, he should have ruled that it was a coup de grace.

 

[Shazman]

That's really strange. Even a 1st level rogue should be able to take out a 1st level warrior.

Except that the rogue is 5th or 6th level, and the guard is a 3rd or 4th level warrior with a good con thanks to his hobgoblin heritage.