-
NOW LIVE! Into the Woods--new character species, eerie monsters, and haunting villains to populate the woodlands of your D&D games.
Ah.
Because, I was thinking they were all ONE suggestion, and thus my barb for neutering them.
I don't like removing the extra domain spells. That sort've makes Domains a little obsolete, seeing as you don't get spells from them.
Spontaniously casting from the Domain list could get really, really nasty, especially at higher levels. Let's look at a few:
Air: Spon Chain Lightning.
Good Domain: Spon Blade Barrier, or Holy Smite.
Luck: Spon Spell Turning.
Magic: Spon Dispel, Spell Turning, or AMF.
Strenght: Spon Righteous Might (shudder),
Sun: Spon Searing Light, Flamestrike, Fireseeds.
Travel: Spon DD or Teleport.
Trickery: Spon Poly Other or Invisibilty.
War: Spon Spiritual Weapon, Power Words, Blade Barrier, Flamestrike.
Water: Cone of Cold, Ice Storm, Acid Fog, Horrid Wilting, Elemental Swarm
Fire: Just... Ouch.
Destruction: Spon Harm.
Death: Spon Slay Living, Wail of the Banshee.
It's a good Thought, but then you could have Clerics out-spelling mages, with the right domains.
And, mages have similar spells that are 1hr/dur. Almost all the Buff spells (They get GMW sooner!).
Because, I was thinking they were all ONE suggestion, and thus my barb for neutering them.
I don't like removing the extra domain spells. That sort've makes Domains a little obsolete, seeing as you don't get spells from them.
Spontaniously casting from the Domain list could get really, really nasty, especially at higher levels. Let's look at a few:
Air: Spon Chain Lightning.
Good Domain: Spon Blade Barrier, or Holy Smite.
Luck: Spon Spell Turning.
Magic: Spon Dispel, Spell Turning, or AMF.
Strenght: Spon Righteous Might (shudder),
Sun: Spon Searing Light, Flamestrike, Fireseeds.
Travel: Spon DD or Teleport.
Trickery: Spon Poly Other or Invisibilty.
War: Spon Spiritual Weapon, Power Words, Blade Barrier, Flamestrike.
Water: Cone of Cold, Ice Storm, Acid Fog, Horrid Wilting, Elemental Swarm
Fire: Just... Ouch.
Destruction: Spon Harm.
Death: Spon Slay Living, Wail of the Banshee.
It's a good Thought, but then you could have Clerics out-spelling mages, with the right domains.
And, mages have similar spells that are 1hr/dur. Almost all the Buff spells (They get GMW sooner!).
Last edited:
Ranger REG
Explorer
Cleric is supposed to embody various duties of a priesthood, from a cloistered monk to a militant crusader. It is only reasonable that they have a good BAB just below a fighter and paladin, and on par with rogue.
Personally, I'd remove the armor (heavy) proficiency. If he wants to be more of a militant crusader then he should just spend on it, while a more moderate priest would spend his feats on enhancing his divine spells.
I'd also reduce his list of simple weapon proficiency by removing the mace (light and heavy) and morningstar and move them into the martial weapon category. Let's face it, they're weapons of war, descended from the simple club. If the cleric wants them, then they should spend for them, although they're more likely to acquire a weapon that is favored by their deity first and foremost.
Personally, I'd remove the armor (heavy) proficiency. If he wants to be more of a militant crusader then he should just spend on it, while a more moderate priest would spend his feats on enhancing his divine spells.
I'd also reduce his list of simple weapon proficiency by removing the mace (light and heavy) and morningstar and move them into the martial weapon category. Let's face it, they're weapons of war, descended from the simple club. If the cleric wants them, then they should spend for them, although they're more likely to acquire a weapon that is favored by their deity first and foremost.
Shard O'Glase
First Post
I say give them one good save, d4 hp, wizard bab, and 5 bonus feats from metamagic, and item creation. Oh and remove spontaneous healing for spontaeous domain spells.(a boost IMO)
There spellcasting ability easily equals that of the wizard they don't need anything else. If you want to be a militant crusader multiclass with a fighter. If you are going to make a class with the clerics combat ability, and domains, their spellcasting power should be more on par with the bards.
There spellcasting ability easily equals that of the wizard they don't need anything else. If you want to be a militant crusader multiclass with a fighter. If you are going to make a class with the clerics combat ability, and domains, their spellcasting power should be more on par with the bards.
Elder-Basilisk
First Post
Since this is already crossing over into house rules, these are my suggestions:
If you're convinced that clerics are too powerful (I'm not) remove the heavy armor proficiency and reduce their HD to a d6. You can also change the persistant spell feat to be ineffective with Divine Power and Divine Favor. This will dramatically reduce the combat effectiveness of clerics without completely neutering the class.
If you want to make clerics more distinct, play around with the ability to turn undead. I'd advise replacing it with other divine feats from DotF or Kingdoms of Kalamar Players' Guide (be careful with that though--their channel positive and negative energy feats were thrown together with what can only be described as a complete and wanton disregard for game balance). IMHO this is dramatically superior to allowing spontaneous casting of domain spells. The spontaneous casting of domain spells makes clerics far far more powerful as they are able to cast large numbers of spells that are normally (and with good reason) restricted to wizards and sorcerors. I allowed this in my campaign at one point in time and my travel and healing domain cleric could have the entire party continually flying. That kind of ability is otherwise reserved for sorcerors who choose fly as one of their only 3rd level spells (or their only 3rd level spell at 6th level). Introducing the tactical options of a high level game at least two levels in advance (5th level in this case whereas very few sorcerors pick fly as their 1st 3rd level spell and if they do, that's their only one) is a very bad thing for game balance.
Also anything that removes clerics' spontaneous healing ability is a major change in the balance and structure of D&D 3e which assumes the ready availability of large amounts of healing. A party without a cleric will often resort to lots of cheesy tricks (for instance, a fighter/barbarian with one level of wizard and a wand of shield) in order to avoid the large amounts of damage that monsters dish out. And even that isn't really effective by the time characters reach level 7+.
If you're convinced that clerics are too powerful (I'm not) remove the heavy armor proficiency and reduce their HD to a d6. You can also change the persistant spell feat to be ineffective with Divine Power and Divine Favor. This will dramatically reduce the combat effectiveness of clerics without completely neutering the class.
If you want to make clerics more distinct, play around with the ability to turn undead. I'd advise replacing it with other divine feats from DotF or Kingdoms of Kalamar Players' Guide (be careful with that though--their channel positive and negative energy feats were thrown together with what can only be described as a complete and wanton disregard for game balance). IMHO this is dramatically superior to allowing spontaneous casting of domain spells. The spontaneous casting of domain spells makes clerics far far more powerful as they are able to cast large numbers of spells that are normally (and with good reason) restricted to wizards and sorcerors. I allowed this in my campaign at one point in time and my travel and healing domain cleric could have the entire party continually flying. That kind of ability is otherwise reserved for sorcerors who choose fly as one of their only 3rd level spells (or their only 3rd level spell at 6th level). Introducing the tactical options of a high level game at least two levels in advance (5th level in this case whereas very few sorcerors pick fly as their 1st 3rd level spell and if they do, that's their only one) is a very bad thing for game balance.
Also anything that removes clerics' spontaneous healing ability is a major change in the balance and structure of D&D 3e which assumes the ready availability of large amounts of healing. A party without a cleric will often resort to lots of cheesy tricks (for instance, a fighter/barbarian with one level of wizard and a wand of shield) in order to avoid the large amounts of damage that monsters dish out. And even that isn't really effective by the time characters reach level 7+.
Last edited:
Mmm, interesting topic...
IMHO, a balanced Cleric can be two things: a Spellcaster (healing, protection and buffing) or a fighter.. ..the problem with the current Cleric is that it's both, so..
Let's say a Cleric (Spellcaster) could/shoud have: good Will save, Wiz BAB, d6 HP, 4 skill points/level, spontaneous casting of Domain spells.. ..makes sense, considering that the Domains are now more important to the Cleric, that means that the bond with his deity is tigher -and that Healing Domain gains importance-
Good, now the Crusader / Holy Warrior (Fighter, dunno how to name it): Cleric BAB, Good Fort and Will Saves -due to his faith-, d8 HP, 2 skill points/level, only one domain -with spontaneous casting-, Bard spell progression (so spells up to 6th level).
Opinions?
IMHO, a balanced Cleric can be two things: a Spellcaster (healing, protection and buffing) or a fighter.. ..the problem with the current Cleric is that it's both, so..
Let's say a Cleric (Spellcaster) could/shoud have: good Will save, Wiz BAB, d6 HP, 4 skill points/level, spontaneous casting of Domain spells.. ..makes sense, considering that the Domains are now more important to the Cleric, that means that the bond with his deity is tigher -and that Healing Domain gains importance-
Good, now the Crusader / Holy Warrior (Fighter, dunno how to name it): Cleric BAB, Good Fort and Will Saves -due to his faith-, d8 HP, 2 skill points/level, only one domain -with spontaneous casting-, Bard spell progression (so spells up to 6th level).
Opinions?
I think that making them Spon cast Domain spells is really pigeonholing them into the Medic mindset.
Spon casting is the byproduct of keeping players from being Forced to play the medic, and then sacrificing their spells for healing spells.
"I know that Magical Vestment, Searing Light, and bestow curse are useful, but I guess I'll just have to take some healing spells, so everyone survives."
The reason WotC made Clerics powerful, was to get people to actually Play the class. But, if you completely neuter them like so, then expect less healers in your game, period. Spon healing is what makes Clerics superior then Druids.
Look at the Druid. A lot of people don't play that for the sheer restriction of weapons, and paticular abilities. There's your neutered cleric.
Spon casting is the byproduct of keeping players from being Forced to play the medic, and then sacrificing their spells for healing spells.
"I know that Magical Vestment, Searing Light, and bestow curse are useful, but I guess I'll just have to take some healing spells, so everyone survives."
The reason WotC made Clerics powerful, was to get people to actually Play the class. But, if you completely neuter them like so, then expect less healers in your game, period. Spon healing is what makes Clerics superior then Druids.
Look at the Druid. A lot of people don't play that for the sheer restriction of weapons, and paticular abilities. There's your neutered cleric.
Ferox4
First Post
I have to echo Xarlen's comments. For too long the Cleric was just the mobile hospital that came along to keep everyone alive beyond the next battle. Even now I find the stigmatism of playing a Cleric still remains among our group (only myself and the other DM in our group will play them). I do not think that they 'break' the balance of the game. They are, after all, conduits of great power.
In second edition, a standard cleric was a medic and a not so good fighter. A specialy cleric was just a walking power. The only cleric I heard of in 2nd ed were specialty clerics.
In third ed, they changed the whole power curve. I would say that wizards come out on top, with sorrcerers just below. Haste, improved invis, fly, rain down death. What does the cleric have on that? Why do you need armor?
Clerics are now playable because spontanous casting allows them to try other things and not worry about the healing. A pure fighter should be able to beat them at higher levels. The class offers a lot of versitility, but that can be abused. Overall I would call them balanced as is.
In third ed, they changed the whole power curve. I would say that wizards come out on top, with sorrcerers just below. Haste, improved invis, fly, rain down death. What does the cleric have on that? Why do you need armor?
Clerics are now playable because spontanous casting allows them to try other things and not worry about the healing. A pure fighter should be able to beat them at higher levels. The class offers a lot of versitility, but that can be abused. Overall I would call them balanced as is.
Similar Threads
D&D 3E/3.5
Homebrew Content
