To Fudge or not to Fudge...

[Squire James]

I put down "I fudge only in dire circumstances", but when I fudge I don't do it with the dice. The monster who's getting ready to slay the party decides to do something that isn't so likely to slay the party. I try to keep it so the PC's is unlikely to notice it... like that evil barbarian with the greataxe deciding to do a Max Power Attack on a PC with 1 HP (i.e. a -8 penalty to his attack roll, and he didn't need that +16 to damage).

Of course, once I did exactly that and promptly rolled 2 natural 20's... let's see, 1d12 on a x3 crit... let's roll 3 dice... that's 30 plus 10 Strength bonus... oh that's tripled too... oh yeah he also had that +16... and that's tripled too! I think he set left his axe on "liquify" before that attack!

 

[delericho]

Hm. Never rolling more than a "1"? In a decade? I'd say that you only rolled up one character in that decade, and he only made it to level 3, if what you say is true....

To be fair, it's not a lot of characters - I spend most of my time as DM, and most DMs I have played with haven't insisted on random rolls. But there have been several, and although most don't survive beyond level 2, some have done.

As you can no doubt imagine, it is really frustrating!

....or, I'd highly suspect that your die is not a fair die.

The thing is, it has applied across multiple classes, which means multiple dice (and die types).

Probability just seems to go weird when I pick up dice. I miss way more than I should. I hate fumble mechanisms, because I know I'm going to rolling them disproportionately often. And so on. And there are times when my characters are effectively paralysed for entire sessions because I simply cannot make any roll, no matter the odds.

But then, every so often I hit a streak of really good rolls - I once destroyed (well, not quite) a squad of 15 goblins (minions) with a single burning hands spell, because although I needed a 10 or so to hit, I rolled a consecutive sequence of fourteen values of 15 or above.

As I said, it's really weird.

But that's all fine. A fumble is just a fumble, and (generally) survivable. And even if not, losing a character is no big deal - I'll just get a new one.

It's just that roll for hit points when levelling up which can really screw up a character long-term. And that's the thing: a bad roll is usually a momentary annoyance (and another chance to laugh at my outrageously bad luck). But that bad roll is potentially months of not enjoying the game.

 

[Jimlock]

a quick guide for those interested interested in the art...

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxNb-OF_qw8]Player's POV: Cheating at Dungeons and Dragons D20 dice rolls - YouTube[/ame]

 

[Crazy Jerome]

Wow, I'm really rather stunned. I expected to be a tiny minority, and I see almost everything I wanted to say already said, and said well.


So put me in the camps of:

1. Desire to fudge is a sign of a broken, misunderstood, or poorly selected ruleset--and better fixed by making changes thereof.
2. Fudging dice bad; fudging other things isn't really "fudge". It's all DM fiat whether I adjust the encounter when I first write it, the night before, or one minute before the party sees it.
3. However, it is the DM's job to make consistent decisions. That includes being consistent about how adjustments are made. One of the most important decisions is when to roll the dice.
4. If you fudge dice rolls secretly, even the most foolish, clueless players will eventually suspect. This suspicion will damage the game far more than any other alternative you could select.

That said, like all metagaming influences, there are times and places. Two of the most critical:

• You (your table) otherwise like the ruleset just fine. You don't see an easy way to fix a niche problem, that could do some massive derailing if it arises, but isn't likely too. You can't stand ret-cons. Quietly fudging these situations out of existence is the easiest way for you to deal with it.
• And, this is all understood up front by everyone there. That is, the players don't necessarily know--and probably explicitly don't want to know--exactly when you deal with these situations. They have simply empowered you to do so, and that's that. They expect you to not fudge outside those parameters. This neatly nullifies all the bad effects of secret fudging while retaining the fast play/immersion enhancing aspects (for some people).

And one qualification: The dice roll itself is less critical than it what it means. The die is a tool. Say I have a wandering monster table with 8 results. I've decided (DM fiat, setting notes, whatever) that only the first seven apply in the current area. I roll. I get an 8. I reroll until I get something else. That isn't fudging. That's merely generating a number from 1-7 on a d8. OTOH, if I think the whole table is fine, roll, get the 8, and then decide the 8 didn't happen--fudge. To me, anyway. Not that you can't DM fiat to override those kind of decisions--it is borderline anyway, and out in the open or behind the screen is irrelevant here. But I think a big part of training yourself to be consistent is thinking about the possible results before you roll.

 

[Traveon Wyvernspur]

Wow, I'm really rather stunned. I expected to be a tiny minority, and I see almost everything I wanted to say already said, and said well.


So put me in the camps of:

1. Desire to fudge is a sign of a broken, misunderstood, or poorly selected ruleset--and better fixed by making changes thereof.
2. Fudging dice bad; fudging other things isn't really "fudge". It's all DM fiat whether I adjust the encounter when I first write it, the night before, or one minute before the party sees it.
3. However, it is the DM's job to make consistent decisions. That includes being consistent about how adjustments are made. One of the most important decisions is when to roll the dice.
4. If you fudge dice rolls secretly, even the most foolish, clueless players will eventually suspect. This suspicion will damage the game far more than any other alternative you could select.

That said, like all metagaming influences, there are times and places. Two of the most critical:

• You (your table) otherwise like the ruleset just fine. You don't see an easy way to fix a niche problem, that could do some massive derailing if it arises, but isn't likely too. You can't stand ret-cons. Quietly fudging these situations out of existence is the easiest way for you to deal with it.
• And, this is all understood up front by everyone there. That is, the players don't necessarily know--and probably explicitly don't want to know--exactly when you deal with these situations. They have simply empowered you to do so, and that's that. They expect you to not fudge outside those parameters. This neatly nullifies all the bad effects of secret fudging while retaining the fast play/immersion enhancing aspects (for some people).

And one qualification: The dice roll itself is less critical than it what it means. The die is a tool. Say I have a wandering monster table with 8 results. I've decided (DM fiat, setting notes, whatever) that only the first seven apply in the current area. I roll. I get an 8. I reroll until I get something else. That isn't fudging. That's merely generating a number from 1-7 on a d8. OTOH, if I think the whole table is fine, roll, get the 8, and then decide the 8 didn't happen--fudge. To me, anyway. Not that you can't DM fiat to override those kind of decisions--it is borderline anyway, and out in the open or behind the screen is irrelevant here. But I think a big part of training yourself to be consistent is thinking about the possible results before you roll.

I think you really hit the nail on the head here with consistency. I have to totally agree that no matter what a DM does in their game, they have to be consistent or risk losing the respect of their table of players thinking they are being dishonest, whimsical, or flighty. The DM has to keep things that they do decide to change (even if fudging a rule) the same no matter what, they shouldn't be changing it all the time in different ways.

 

[jasper]

If the players want to fudge, the coca, milk, sugar, and salt are in the kitchen and the candy thermometer is in the left hand drawer where the silver ware is kept. If they fudging at the rolls then monsters can cheat too.
As I gotten older I have fudge less and less as a DM.

 

[Traveon Wyvernspur]

As I gotten older I have fudge less and less as a DM.

Are you talking about the dice fudging/rules fudging or the actual fudge?

 

[Gronin]

Hi ..... my name is Bill and I am a die fudger.

(that sounds much worse than it is)

As a player I do not fudge. Never have and never will.

As a DM I do fudge. As a DM I use a screen -- always and I have never playedin a campaign where the DM didn't.

Occassionaly it is because I put together an encounter that was tougher than I had anticipated.

Occassionaly it is because the entire party has gone super cold on the dice at the same time. I have no problem with a TPK if they are morons but just flat out unlucky isn't fun for anyone. They won't get a win and there will be consequences but not a TPK.

Occassionally (and this is very, very rare) I will fudge because my dice have gone cold and in my opinion a complete wipe in either direction is not a lot of fun.

All that being said and I am not trying to sidetrack things here or start any kind of edition war but I have found less need since I switched to 4th.

Now as far as players fudging in my campaign -- it happens, I know it happens and I don't care. It is not my job to police the die throws of others. These people are first and foremost my friends and it is my job to make sure the players have fun and have fun while doing it. If it takes a few moments of "creative math" in order for someone to have fun then so be it. As long as they aren't "rolling" nothing but Nat 20s it is just not going to make that much of a difference.

 

[Traveon Wyvernspur]

Hi ..... my name is Bill and I am a die fudger.

(that sounds much worse than it is)

As a player I do not fudge. Never have and never will.

As a DM I do fudge. As a DM I use a screen -- always and I have never playedin a campaign where the DM didn't.

Occassionaly it is because I put together an encounter that was tougher than I had anticipated.

Occassionaly it is because the entire party has gone super cold on the dice at the same time. I have no problem with a TPK if they are morons but just flat out unlucky isn't fun for anyone. They won't get a win and there will be consequences but not a TPK.

Occassionally (and this is very, very rare) I will fudge because my dice have gone cold and in my opinion a complete wipe in either direction is not a lot of fun.

All that being said and I am not trying to sidetrack things here or start any kind of edition war but I have found less need since I switched to 4th.

Now as far as players fudging in my campaign -- it happens, I know it happens and I don't care. It is not my job to police the die throws of others. These people are first and foremost my friends and it is my job to make sure the players have fun and have fun while doing it. If it takes a few moments of "creative math" in order for someone to have fun then so be it. As long as they aren't "rolling" nothing but Nat 20s it is just not going to make that much of a difference.

Hi Bill,

Welcome to the group. You've taken your first step in admitting that you fudge the dice. I'm sure everyone here will agree with me *looks around for nods and "ummhmm's, then continues* you've made a very big decision to come talk to us about it. I too have been a die fudger, I agree with you and how you do things at your table and commend you for coming forth with the rest of us to get it out in the open. The next step I think you've already mastered, is acceptance...

 

[Water Bob]

These people are first and foremost my friends and it is my job to make sure the players have fun and have fun while doing it. If it takes a few moments of "creative math" in order for someone to have fun then so be it. As long as they aren't "rolling" nothing but Nat 20s it is just not going to make that much of a difference.

I agree that it is the DM's job to make sure everyone enjoys themselves. That is a top priority when running a game.

But, I completely disagree about allowing a player to fudge. I game with my friends, too, but since the beginning (back in '82, whew!), I've always demanded that dice throws happen in front of me, the DM, or they don't happen. This goes for character generation, too. I you want to roll up some stats and then take those home and put time into building a character, fine. But, those stats are going to be rolled in front of me.

I don't do this because I don't trust my friends. I do it to emulate a lock on a car door. It keeps the honest people honest, and there never is a question.

I watch HP detractions pretty good, too, and sometimes I'll kee track, myself, along with a player--and he won't know I'm doing it.