To Kill or Not to Kill

[Arnwyn]

How do you deal with the dissapointment of losiing this creative personality that you have spent so long investing life into?

So give me your thoughts. What is the stance on charectar death in your game and why?

I suppose I can best describe my "stance" on death is: "death happens". Death will normally occur if my players are reckless with their PCs, but it can (rarely) happen with a critical hit (though I usually tack that onto "reckless", since they likely should have fallen back for healing).

As a player, I would "deal with the disappointment of losing this creative personality" by learning from the experience and noting to play better and smarter next time.

Works for us.

 

[Pants]

Apparently you didn't read my earlier post.

Yes I did, but I don't think you should blame yourself because the troll got lucky, nor am I going to blame Tim because the giant got lucky. There is only so much that a PC can second guess himself before caution becomes ridiculous. For example, the PC's may have excellent tactics in a given situation, but one may fall due to a lucky crit or a failed save or something.

Then again, the PC's may do something unbelievably stupid and reap their rewards. Again, in an instance involving Frost Giants, this happened to another player. He died and he stayed dead.

D&D is at its very base a game of chance. Sometimes tactics and planning don't mean anything because someone will get lucky with a dice roll.

 

[Bendris Noulg]

Unfortunatly Wotc based the Epic play book on this very assumption making it sub-optimal for playstyles that differ from it's 3rd edition give-give-give to the players playstyle.

Yep, which is why I went through the book and drew a big red line dividing what I call High Level Play from Epic Status Play, with Epic Status being the "doorway" to game play that is more metaphysical in theme (with mood and scale comparible to Sandman) while HLP remains grounded in the "physical" (and thus plays out as an extension of the lower levels without putting a ceiling on character potential).

 

[rogueattorney]

Even The Gygax has said that PC deaths are bad for character development.

Hmmmm... Curious, person to look to for support given what the good Col. Pladoh just posted today on Dragonfoot:

http://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3236&start=195

My view of FRPG adventure material is that is should mainly be action-adventure oriented. Character development is something that is meaningful in novels, but has small part in modules...

<<snip>>

...I scoff at the idea that playing an RPG is an art form, and that amateur theatrics are central to the game form.

I swear, some of the posts in this thread make my brain fell like it's oozing out of my ears. Deadly combat only every three to four sessions? The orc lucking out in killing a PC? (Does that mean PC's are just as lucky when they kill the orc?) An NPC wizard not using his best spells when the PC's are trying to kill him? What f'in game are you guys playing?

Seriously, why do you guys even bring dice to the table? Or do you bring dice to the table? Why do you even play D&D? Why not join a fantasy book of the month club? Or become active in the local theatre troupe? Or participate in writing a progressive novel?

Whatever. To each his own, different strokes for different folks, etc, etc.

One final question : Diaglo, why dude? Why do you even bother? Why do you venture into the land of the heretics? I'm gonna go back home to DF before someone decides to burn me at the stake. See ya' there.

R.A.

 

[Bendris Noulg]

I swear, some of the posts in this thread make my brain fell like it's oozing out of my ears. Deadly combat only every three to four sessions? The orc lucking out in killing a PC? (Does that mean PC's are just as lucky when they kill the orc?) An NPC wizard not using his best spells when the PC's are trying to kill him? What f'in game are you guys playing?

The same one you are, only with different priorities and preferences.

Seriously, why do you guys even bring dice to the table?

Of course. Dice are essential for determining the outcome of a given action.

Why do you even play D&D?

Are you implying that we are playing the game wrong in some regard or are in some way lesser players?

Why not join a fantasy book of the month club?

Because RPGs are interactive. On top, I am a member of the SFBC, so I get the best of both worlds.

Or become active in the local theatre troupe?

I'm shy and have stage frieght.

Or participate in writing a progressive novel?

Doing this, too (which, I assure you, is nothing like participating in an RPG).

Whatever. To each his own, different strokes for different folks, etc, etc.

Might have given that some thought before going on your little tirade (which did more to reveal your own narrow views than it did to rip on anyone else).

 

[rogueattorney]

Dice are essential for determining the outcome of a given action.

What is the purpose of the dice if the outcome (that the PC won't get killed by the monster's attack) has already been determined? Why bother if the DM already knows the PC's will win? Is it pretense? Is it illusion?

R.A.

 

[Bendris Noulg]

Well, I'm not a part of the "don't kill them" camp; my thing is that most combats are more tactical challenges than power challenges (except for various baddies and their top henchmen, whom are powerful and tactical). However, I'm sure it's not a big secret that combat isn't the only time dice are used, so if even a GM is fudging to avoid character death, there's no reason to assume that the GM is also fudging for character success (either in combat or outside of it).

 

[Kaodi]

D&D Loss

Personally, I believe permanent ability score loss is much, much, much, much, much crueler than level loss. Time, experience and treasure can heal one, while nothing, ever, will heal the other.

While I don't like losing experience either, I can imagine some situations where it might improve my character in a strange way. In a campaign with lots of down time, I would probably be less concerned about falling further behind while creating magic items, for instance.

I guess the best way of explaining how one is worse than the other is that in the first example, the character is defective compared to his equals, whereas in the latter he is just as effective as his equals, though his equals are of lesser stature.

 

[Malk]

ok let me sound a little smug here....when my group played DND it *was* an artform. Charectar growth, creation, and artistic expression were all very very important. Major combat every once per game maybe once every other game...fairly low. I mean really if you like dnd another way, way to go. Ive played heavier combat games..hell ive played only combat games before, but why trash someone if they enjoy a different game.

And Bendris, i agree that an established group, and game shouldnt have to change their game for a new player/s, though as always an open communication should be present, and if small changes can be made that dosnt hurt the enjoyment of existing players then by all means do so.

Oh, and as for the question, "is it all pretense? is it all illusion?" sorry to tell you, but yes. This is a made up game, and im sure you didnt mean the queastion in that mannor but i answered it in that mannor to illustrate a point. Its a make believe game with no right or wrong way to play it.

 

[Elemental]

My view is best summed up by a post on another thread on this topic, from a while back:

"Heroes who can't fail unless it suits the story aren't heroes, they're hand puppets."