to max out ones main attribute

[emanresu]

a recent encounter with angry player vs DM squabble, brought something to my attention. That something is maximizing your main attribute. Lets take CHA as an example, just so happens to be the source of above mentioned, and on going, player DM dispute. If I wanted to base my PC off of the sole ability to max out my CHA score how could I do this?

2 levels of Hexblade gives you arcane resistance =cha mod added to saves vs spells.

2 levels of wilder = cha mod to touch AC

Paladin = cha to all saves

few levels of swift blade prestige class (5?) spell casting attribute to initiative rolls (cha)

power of personality, CHA for will saves instead of WIS

so can you add on here some tricks of the trade

 

[xigbar]

I believe this is the current record for highest attribute. Whoops! Browser Settings Incompatible

 

[emanresu]

I didnt want to get the highest stat possible, although its a good idea to get your main casting stat high, that wasnt the purpose of this thread. I wanted to see the various ways, stackable ways, a player could make his main attribute work for him. Much like the example (s) I posted.

 

[xigbar]

X Stat to Y Bonus

 

[nijineko]

once you base your will off of your cha, there is a single feat that nixes the need to further boost your other saves, or at least aids the matter: kissed by the ages - survivor pick. this feat allows you to pick a flavorful background with a mechanical benefit, in the case of the survivor you get to swap out any reflex and fort save for a will save. the catch is that you net a cumulative -1 penalty for each successive swap for the rest of the day.

i have a cha heavy character wherein i decided to see how far i could opt it without losing effectiveness. i went with feytouched race, feytouched level adjustment, half fey transition class, four levels of the ghost template, wilder plus master of the unseen hand. (due to the fact that psionics are listed as a spell like / psi like ability in the SRD, a psionic character can qualify for the MotUH as is, with no alteration to the class. )

starting with an 18 cha, the race and templates put my cha at 32. add a +4 tome, and a +6 vest or cloak and that's a 42. not too bad for only half trying. using the level adjustment buy off rules, and the adjusted LA rules in the savage progressions articles, and you can take each LA one at a time, buying it off three levels later.

now 17th level, and only a +1 LA from his final level of ghost, which will be bought off at 18. a few ranks in diplomacy, sense motive, bluff, and intimidate and he's all set. oh, and he gets CHA to concentration checks, immune to all mind affecting (dead or alive), undead qualities, turn resistance, immune to enchantments, and a host of fey-based spell-like abilities in addition to the ghost abilities, psionic abilities, and master of the unseen hand abilities. a practice manifester feat brings his ML up to 16, and he can surge for +3 ML. not to shabby for a dead guy.


with all the telekinesis, he can pull off a raft of jedi tricks, he even has the stygian bolt power for the black lightning effect. i debated adding the blade of light power or giving him a ghost touch brilliant energy weapon, but that was a bit much, so i forebear.

 

[RUMBLETiGER]

Factotum can apply Int to all Str and Dex checks, Attacks, Damage, Saves & AC.

Kinda nifty. Just sayin.

Also, they get class level to skill checks. All of the one's with atleast 1 rank, but only once a day each.

Add Knowledge Devotion. Win.

Have I mentioned liking Factotums before? I like Factotums.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

I like Factotums, but IME a straight Factotum just doesn't have much to offer in combat. It's a very nice class to add 3 or 8 levels to(wards) another class, set of classes, or prestige class. I've played a lot of multiclassed Factotums, only full classed one I did was briefly in a gestalt game where you were only allowed to do Class X // Class Y w/o any multiclassing at all, and in that game Factotum side was mostly just being used for extra standards to cast more spells, occasional int mod boost to a save, and for some combat maneuvers.

And you're misleading, Rumble. They can add int to ALL str and dex checks and skill checks. But adding to anything else costs an inspiration point, which are a very limited resource that you need to power most of their class features, and in a lot of cases it isn't just "add Int to X for 1 round" in general. For example, you can add int to ONE attack or damage roll per point spent. You can apply int to ONE saving throw. You can apply int to AC for 1 round, but only against ONE opponent.

If you actually attempted to use those abilities to buff all your rolls with Int, you'd run out of inspiration by round 2 if not round 1...

 

[emanresu]

I didnt nec want to see how hi an attribute could get, nor would I be willing to role play a ghost to do it, instead I was looking at making 1 att work for you. Wis to AC, Monk. Cha to touch AC, Wilder. Cha or Int to initiative , Swiftblade (prstg), Int bonus to just about everything Factotum, albeit few times a day. Int mod to damage, Warmage, Int mod to AC Swashbuckler.

These are the sort of alt bonuses I was ref to. Not getting a stat above 40. Although I am interest in tricks O the trade to increase ones stats.

 

[emanresu]

Speed of movement

If you wanted to make a pc, hell bent on speed, what could you do, what classes, feats, skills, magics, spells & templates so on so forth, to be all that you could be.

I know the common response might be "play a Monk" but for some reason the Monk who works out constantly, who life is dedicated to mind over body perfection, making his body a temple, WHO has no Arcane spell casting ability yet his movement is considered a magical bonus and thusly cant stack with any other magical bonus to movement?

Barbarian +10' move
scout + 10 to 20 but again like monk is considered enchantment
Cleric domain celerity (?) grants +10' move
Swiftblade +10 to 20' move
speed of thought psi feat + 10' move
exp retreat + 30' move. spell

please add to above list, and by all means, if you could post a pc build featuring speed as paramount to all else, please do.

 

[nijineko]

well, since in your original post you said, "If I wanted to base my PC off of the sole ability to max out my CHA score how could I do this?" so please don't complain when i give you one method to do exactly that.

oh, by the way, i have great fun ROLE-playing my ghost character.

he picks up new equipment by seeking out other ghosts, and helping lay them to rest in exchange for some ethereal equipment. he has acquired some really random stuff that way. in fact, he seldom joins in on fights, or uses his powers much at all. they are there if i ever need to lay down some smack, but they are not frequently used. i think the last times he used his powers were helping the party reach the top of a mountain, and teleporting the group to a nearby city. and 42 is hardly a maximum possible score. though it is very nice.


in response to your question of speed, i would add the following idea(s) from another thread:
[sblock]

I was reading an old thread recently on another forum and they were talking about the Class Feature Variants in Unearthed Arcana. One gentleman said something about using one variant to qualify for another variant, and that got my mind racing with the potential that a Variant Chain could hold.

Offered up here for your optimizing pleasure...

Variant Chaining
The first set of variants listed here simply swap class feature of one class for another.

Primary Variants

A Barbarian (UA)
Lose: Rage, greater rage, indomitable will, tireless rage, mighty rage.
Gain: Favored enemy (as ranger); archery combat style, improved archery combat style, and archery combat style mastery (as ranger).

B Bard (UA)
Lose: Bardic knowledge, inspire courage, inspire competence,
inspire greatness, inspire heroics.
Gain: Animal companion (as druid), nature sense (as druid),
resist nature’s lure (as druid), wild empathy (as druid).

C Cleric (UA)
Lose: Turn undead.
Gain: Smite evil, if the cleric would normally channel positive energy, or smite good, if the cleric would normally channel negative energy (as paladin); aura of courage (as paladin).

D Druid (UA)
Lose: Armor and shield proficiency, wild shape (all versions).
Gain: Bonus to Armor Class when unarmored (as monk, including Wisdom bonus to AC)*, fast movement (as monk), favored enemy (as ranger), swift tracker (as ranger), Track (as ranger).

E Druidic Avenger (UA)
Lose: Animal Companion, Spontaneous Summoning spells, -4 Wild Empathy Checks
Gain: Fast Movement (as Barbarian), Rage (as Barbarian), Tireless Rage (as Barbarian),

F Fighter (UA)
Lose: Bonus feats.
Gain: Sneak attack (as rogue).

G Monk (UA)
Lose: Enhancement bonus to unarmored speed, bonus to Armor Class when unarmored (retain Wisdom bonus to AC when unarmored).*
Gain: Damage reduction (as barbarian).

H Paladin (UA)
Lose: Lay on hands, turn undead, remove disease.
Gain: Favored enemy (as ranger; may only select aberrations, dragons, giants, monstrous humanoids, evil outsiders, or undead).

I Ranger (UA)
Lose: Combat style, improved combat style, combat style mastery.
Gain: Wild shape (as druid; Small or Medium animals only), fast movement (as barbarian).

J Trap Expert (Ranger) (DS)
Lose: Track, Swift Tracker
Gain: Trapfinding, Disable Device as Class Skill

K Rogue (UA)
Lose: Sneak attack.
Gain: Bonus feats (as fighter).

L** Sorcerer/Wizard (UA)
Lose: Familiar.
Gain: Animal companion (as druid; treat sorcerer or wizard as a druid of half his class level).

M** Wizard (UA)
Lose: Scribe Scroll, wizard bonus feat list.
Gain: Bonus feat list (as fighter; bonus feats gained at 1st level and every five levels as wizard).


* Note that variant D gives Wisdom to AC bonus but variant G does NOT take it away.
** I see no actual potential with variants L or M but I figured I'd include them anyway.


Secondary Variants

Listed here are variants whose prereq's can be met using the variants above:

Barbarian

1 Lose: Fast Movement (Barbarian)
Gain: Spirit Totem (CC)

2 Lose: Damage Reduction (Barbarian)
Gain: Totem Manifestation

3 Lose: Rage (Barbarian)
Gain: Berzerker Strength (PH2)

4 Lose: Trap Sense (Barbarian or Rogue)
Gain: Spell Sense (CM)

Druid

5 Lose: Animal Companion (Druid or Ranger)
Gain: Phynxkin Companion (DrM)

6 Lose: Animal Companion (Druid) AND Wild Empathy (Druid)
Gain: Elemental Comanion (CM)

7 Lose: Animal Companion (Druid) AND Wild Shape (Druid)
Gain: Shapeshift (PH2)

8 Lose: Wild Shape (Druid)
Gain: Aspect of the Dragon (DrM)

9 Lose: Wild Shape (Druid)
Gain: Spider Shape (Und)

Fighter

10 Lose: Fighter Feat Any Even Level
Gain: Resolute @ any even level (CC)

11 Lose: Fighter Feat Lvl 2 and Lvl 6
Gain: Dungeon Crasher (DS)

12 Lose: Fighter Feat Lvl 4 or higher
Gain: Aligned Strike (CC)

13 Lose: Fighter Feat Lvl 6
Gain: Elusive Attack (PH2)

14 Lose: Fighter Feat Lvl 8 or Higher
Gain: Armor of God (CC)

15 Lose: Fighter Feat Lvl 12
Gain: Counter Atack (PH2)

16 Lose: Fighter Feat Lvl 16
Gain: Overpowering Attack (PH2)

Monk

17 Lose: Reduced Fast Movement (Monk)
Gain: Standing Jump (DS)

Ranger

18 Lose: Animal Companion (Druid or Ranger)
Gain: Phynxkin Companion (DrM)

19 Lose: Animal Companion (Ranger)
Gain: Distracting Attack (PH2)

20 Lose: Animal Companion (Ranger)
Gain: Spiritual Guide (CC)

21 Lose: Favored Enemy 1st Lvl only (Ranger)
Gain: Arcane Hunter (CM)

22 Lose: Wild Empathy (Ranger)
Gain: Spiritual Connection (CC)

Rogue

23 Lose: Trapfinding (Rogue)
Gain: Antiquarian (CC)

24 Lose: Trapfinding (Rogue)
Gain: Poison Use (Und)

25 Lose: Trap Sense (Rogue)
Gain: Death's Ruin (CC)

26 Lose: Trap Sense (Rogue)
Gain: Penetrating Strike (DS)

27 Lose: Trap Sense (Barbarian or Rogue)
Gain: Spell Sense (CM)


Sources:
CC -Comlete Champion
CM - Complete Mage
DrM - Dragon Magic
Und - Drow of the Underdark
DS - Dungeonscape
PH2 - Players Handbook 2


Example Chain:

Lets begin with a basic Barbarian.

First we apply the Primary Variants.

Apply Variant A:
Lose: Rage, Greater Rage, Indomitable will, Tireless Rage, Mighty Rage
Gain: Favored enemy (Ranger); Archery Combat Style, Improved Archery Combat Style, and Archery Combat Style Mastery (Ranger).

A Chained to Variant I:
Lose: Combat Style, Improved Combat Style, Combat Style Mastery.
Gain: Wild shape (Druid; Small or Medium animals only), Fast Movement (Barbarian).

I Chained to Variant D:
Lose: Armor and Shield proficiency, Wild Shape (all versions).
Gain: Bonus to Armor Class when unarmored (Monk, including Wisdom bonus to AC), Fast Movement (Monk), Favored Enemy (Ranger), Swift tracker (Ranger), Track (Ranger).

D Chained to Variant G:
Lose: Enhancement bonus to unarmored speed (Monk), Bonus to Armor Class when Unarmored (retain Wisdom bonus to AC when unarmored).
Gain: Damage reduction (Barbarian).

Here we have a Barbarian that:

Loses: Rage, Greater Rage, Indomitable will, Tireless Rage, Mighty Rage and Armor & Shield proficiencies
Gains: a 2nd Fast Movement (Barbarian), a 2nd Damage Reduction (Barbarian), 2 Favored Enemies (Ranger), Swift Tracker (Ranger), Track (Ranger), and Wisdom to AC (Monk).

Now if we apply some Secondary Variants:

Variant 1
Lose: Fast Movement (Barbarian)
Gain: Spirit Totem (CC)

Variant 2
Lose: Damage Reduction (Barbarian)
Gain: Totem Manifestation (CC)

Variant 20
Lose: Favored Enemy 1st Lvl only (Ranger)
Gain: Arcane Hunter (CM)


What we're left with is:

Loses: Rage, Greater Rage, Indomitable will, Tireless Rage, Mighty Rage and Armor & Shield proficiencies

Gains: 1 Normal Favored Enemy (Ranger), Favored Enemy against ANY Arcane Magic user, Swift Tracker (Ranger), Track (Ranger), Wisdom to AC (Monk), a Spirit Totem (Lion, of course), and a Totem Manifestation.


Thoughts:
I could see a DM not allowing this in his game due to the complexity of it. However, I do not see any "Brokenness" about it. It's still a matter of trade-offs. This just sweetens the pot!

[/sblock]