To Mike Mearls: Melee training and the Battlemind

[Mirtek]

Just give each class an at-will that counts as an MBA and be done with it.

 

[Garthanos]

yup that could really work.. it would allow anybody to operate with there friendly warlord if they want to put the resource it could be an at-will it could be a feat.

I mentioned a unique idea for the Avenger but we will have to see we are used to having a lot of the picture instead of having the picture changed on us.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

What exactly is the point of giving everyone such a melee attack after reducing melee training' efficiency slightly?

 

[Mithreinmaethor]

I always felt that Melee Training should have been just the add to hit and never and add to damage from the get go.

 

[Mengu]

What exactly is the point of giving everyone such a melee attack after reducing melee training' efficiency slightly?

The melee basic of the essentials fighter would be strength based. And that would remove abuse.

So each class could get a feature that lets them use their primary stat for melee basic attacks, and melee training could be scrapped (or maybe left for hybrids).

<begin rant> I also have a slight difficulty with the fact that a character trained with a weapon can currently be completely incompetent with their attacks at the end of a charge, opportunity attacks, granted attacks, etc. If I know where the pointy end goes on this spear thingie, I should be able to make a competent basic attack with it. <end rant>

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Yeah, but what is the point then? It would just be renaming of everything... As a feature, i would buy it... but not as just a MBA in disguise... (i like the new MM)

Making a fighter able to use dexterity as attack stat, but not damage could be done in 3.5 with weapon finesse... melee training was just too much IMHO... I accept that you should be able to hit, but maybe not as hard as with strength.

You may disagree here, that´s ok.

edit: to be clear: base attack level+3, strength to damage would be perfectly ok for me as base attack, no matter where the level +3 come from

 

[ppaladin123]

Yeah, but what is the point then? It would just be renaming of everything... As a feature, i would buy it... but not as just a MBA in disguise... (i like the new MM)

Making a fighter able to use dexterity as attack stat, but not damage could be done in 3.5 with weapon finesse... melee training was just too much IMHO... I accept that you should be able to hit, but maybe not as hard as with strength.

You may disagree here, that´s ok.

edit: to be clear: base attack level+3, strength to damage would be perfectly ok for me as base attack, no matter where the level +3 come from

I don't know if every class should have access to an at-will that counts as a melee basic attack, but you wouldn't need to get rid of melee training as a feat if this happened. There are many at-wills to choose from and you only get 2-3. If you take the melee basic attack at-will you are paying an opportunity cost; you might be forgoing a more powerful at-will for that flexibility. If you don't take one, you can still take the feat but then you are paying a feat cost and losing out on some damage. I think that sort of choice makes for interesting mechanics.

Of course, in terms of flavor and internal consistency I agree with Mengu: if you can use your wisdom to hit things, I am sure you can use your wisdom to charge or make opportunity attacks too!

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Actually i disagree on the fundamental level: wisdom as melee stat! irregular attack stats disencourage multiclassing between classes that should be able to do so

-> rogue/fighter,
-> paladin/fighter
-> avenger/paladin

remedy: unified attack bonus only tied to level or a single stat. Note, that only the attack bonus is important, as 2 or 3 points of damage are neglectible in the long run, but it is just depressing if you don´t hit at all and do no damage...

 

[Garthanos]

Actually i disagree on the fundamental level: wisdom as melee stat! .

Wisdom is perception and discipline... if you had a real world measurement of discipline you could use it to measure how much trained effort they apply to maintaining there tried and true maneuvers... further perception is directly sighted as being how one finds openings and predicts your enemies behaviors ... maybe even how one times the attacks... a martial practice which focused on these might be like kung fu or include a bit of Samurai stare downs... if you remember the class most likely to make use of this is the avenger so for them wisdom is also part of there pipeline to understanding the divine ... all there normal melee is this way.

Melee training is in almost all cases visualizable as instinctualizing or accelerating what they do normally.. ie nothing really that new.

hmmm ok i see you were arguing purely for mc purposes?

 

[DracoSuave]

Actually i disagree on the fundamental level: wisdom as melee stat! irregular attack stats disencourage multiclassing between classes that should be able to do so

-> rogue/fighter,
-> paladin/fighter
-> avenger/paladin

remedy: unified attack bonus only tied to level or a single stat. Note, that only the attack bonus is important, as 2 or 3 points of damage are neglectible in the long run, but it is just depressing if you don´t hit at all and do no damage...

These classes don't need a fix... Fighters use strength primary, so your melee basic is already attuned to one class... and Paladins have Virtuous Strike if they're Charisma-based... Ardent and Avenging are already strength based so... again... melee basic attack is pre-attuned.

In all three cases, your problem is fixable simply by intellegent character design:

Brawny Scoundrel Rogue/Fighter
Ardent Paladin/Fighter (Strength and Wisdom is primary/secondary for both anyways!)
Any paladin/Unity avenger.