To Mike Mearls: Melee training and the Battlemind

[UngeheuerLich]

Yes, that sherlock holmes film was very cool. But i don´t think he did any MBA, but he was planning to hit all the time.

I guess it was rather something like a rogue´s trick. He did no spontaneous opportunity action or such... and he was not that weakly built...

And really, I can understand, that you want your staff fighting wizard, but imho melee training was the wrong direction.

why not a utility power for the wizard, why not a ritual to enwrap your staf in magic? why does it have to be melee training?

 

[Garthanos]

why not a utility power for the wizard, why not a ritual to enwrap your staff in magic? why does it have to be melee training?

Versatile and elegant easily represents taking things you are normally doing and learning to do it faster and instinctually in combat. (could be guiding your fist with magic even like the cantrips given steroids). I want to use Melee training to represent my Bard = "listening closer to the song of battle" like its humming through his mind through out the battle so he can react faster and instinctually to its rythms. The underlying methods involved can be completely styled to suit the class - one simple elegant mechanic can take on the right flavor which we provide.


If your character design doesn't match the retro flavor of essentials (where among other things fighting men are morons) you get the bat. Somebody claimed this was a nuance change only but they add up... and its closer to a nuisance change, fixing what isnt broken - remember this is still early stage roll out for essentials.

The best quote I have seen is

'Backwards compatible' does not mean changing what came before to mesh with the new, it means designing the new to work with what came before.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Agreed, Holmes wasn't using MBAs there. He was stopping, thinking, and unleashing int-based melee powers; but hardly basic ones.

In my experience MBAs normally come into place in two circumstances; charging and opportunity attacks.

I normally take the feat for opportunity attacks which are, after all, free. If you're expecting to make many OAs then the feat is still worth it even with slightly reduced damage. (My monk's more than happy keeping it even if he's annoyed at the nerf).

The other major reason to take it is for some sort of melee ability or odd stat spread (I've seen a Dex 18/Wis 16 Avenger). Edge cases here.

(Besides, for the Wizard example I've got an answer: Swordmage Multiclass/Intelligent Blademaster if it's that big a part of the concept. If they nerf Intelligent Blademaster I shall be ... annoyed.)

 

[Garthanos]

Yes, that sherlock holmes film was very cool. But i don´t think he did any MBA

Remember MBA's are redefined now....check out all the new classes that is the definition of MBA in the game going forward... its not just unplanned stuff.

== In fact I dislike that change in itself - it implies all the martial classes arent thinking or planning or it implies a fundamental change in the meaning of basic attacks

All that predicting what would happen next? a way to accelerate your response. its intelligence based combat (maybe wisdom) based at its finest. and people under-estimate 11 strength. (appropriate for RDJ). Perhaps wary fighter feat in there.

It even felt like a brawling fighter (not a monk) with Intelligence supplanting strength.... for everything.

 

[Garthanos]

Agreed, Holmes wasn't using MBAs there. He was stopping, thinking, and unleashing int-based melee powers; but hardly basic ones.

In my experience MBAs normally come into place in two circumstances; charging and opportunity attacks.

Your experience is from yester year not the future of D&D guided by what we see in essentials they change the definition of mba.

 

[Garthanos]

(Besides, for the Wizard example I've got an answer: Swordmage Multiclass/Intelligent Blademaster if it's that big a part of the concept. If they nerf Intelligent Blademaster I shall be ... annoyed.)

Only works on the sword route already mentioned a staff based war wizard? It doesnt address the general issue.

 

[Kwalish Kid]

I enjoy optimization. Different strokes for different folks.

I'm just pointing out that the battlemind is in an odd spot because of this ruling. The other defenders all have options to give themselves a very good opportunity attack out of the box (fighter, paladin, warden) or with a special feat (swordmage) if they so choose (you are free not to optimize if you don't care to).

Since the battlemind's mark punishment (mind spike) doesn't work at range like the paladin and swordmage, and he can't easily stop movement (fighter) or create difficult terrain (warden), opportunity attack damage +any added effects one can add to it becomes an important part of the battlemind's tool kit.

I keep seeing arguments made like this about 4E classes, arguments that ignore all the powers that the particular class has.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

As much as i can understand what you prefer, imagine melee training had not been introduced in PHB2, but we would now get the new melee training feat... would you argue the same way?

Wepon finesse in 3.5 was much less poten (only attack bonus)
The bard feat which allows charisma for multclass powers is also less potent (only attack bonus)

I believe, some of those feats, introduced in PHB 2 were bad fixes for problems they have seen in initial PHB design, which have set the benchmark for feats quite high. Maybe there were to conservative back and tried to fix everything with feats. The wrong direction IMHO.

If the default MBA were highes ability score vs AC, strength to damage, I could see melee training giving full damage. (Slayer would still be a problem, but ok...)

Right now, melee training does too much. Listening to the song, ok... i like my bard who is a competent melee combatant... (human)

But my bard who also wants to be a powerful melee combatant (goliath) is a bit shafted if he doesn´t go 18 Cha and also take melee training. the 16/16/16/13 option is just inferior. (i still built it this way, but only with a grain of salt). Melee training is now an option, not a must take.

So, if the wizard wants a good meee attack, i would like him multiclass into a weapon using class. Thiss should automatically give him a competent melee basic attack. A bard who is a weapon using class should also have a viable melee base attack. (cha to attack, con or int damage would be sufficient)

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Remember MBA's are redefined now....check out all the new classes that is the definition of MBA in the game going forward... its not just unplanned stuff.

== In fact I dislike that change in itself - it implies all the martial classes arent thinking or planning or it implies a fundamental change in the meaning of basic attacks

All that predicting what would happen next? a way to accelerate your response. its intelligence based combat (maybe wisdom) based at its finest. and people under-estimate 11 strength. (appropriate for RDJ). Perhaps wary fighter feat in there.

It even felt like a brawling fighter (not a monk) with Intelligence supplanting strength.... for everything.

Rogue trick: improve your next basic attack. It is just what sherlock did.

 

[Garthanos]

Rogue trick: improve your next basic attack. It is just what sherlock did.

Exactly what attribute is that based on..? Holmes is very much a massive Intellect character and it was the point of the tricks he pulled. Prediction... not deception.