To the Official Folks: How will Wishes affect Feats?
- Thread starter Edena_of_Neith
- Start date
. Our group is at 21st level and I've had little trouble kicking their butts with NPC's Yea but arravis, when you give them the 15 levels of cleric, they get the feats every 4 levels right? So i don't really see the point of giving them more.
We just agree to disagree arravis. I can see both sides of the argument, but in my mind i would not allow it.a 15th lvl cleric pit fiends should almost be unstoppable shouldnt it?
<--Evil DM GRIN
We just agree to disagree arravis. I can see both sides of the argument, but in my mind i would not allow it.a 15th lvl cleric pit fiends should almost be unstoppable shouldnt it?
<--Evil DM GRINWishes for permanent abilities
Very interesting thread, except for the minor flamewar.
First of all, wishes ARE a tool, that any Wizard, Cleric, or Sorcerer can cast upon obtaining 18th or 19th level. (Miracle referred to generically as wish).
Wishes have very specific stated permanent effects. Mass healing, some ressurection, and attribute enhancement. Period. Everything else "may fulfill" but "may also be limited" by the DM. The reason you don't see this detailed out, is it's hard as hell to detail all the different possibilties, and instead simply say...check with your DM on what seems fair. So, relevant to this discussion, most DM's should have an agreed upon, clearly understood limitations around wish for his players. Failure to do so is robbing the players of an important and valuable tool, and you would be better to yank the XP requirement off, and use it as written, or simply eliminate the spell altogether.
So, in light of providing a valuable resource to my players, we developed a set of guidelines to follow when wishing for anything except what is listed above (magic items, feats, other class abilities, etc.). Without going into the rather detailed version, it simply has the following cardinal rules:
1) The proportion of a wishes' duration is inversely proportional to it's power.
2) Wish is a spell. A spell that affects another being is subject to spell resistance and a saving throw.
3) Wish is ninth level, and requires a sacrifice on the part of the character, and so the power should reflect it.
So, to answer your question of whether or not you could wish for a feat, absolutely. Would it ever be permanent? No. Can a wish grant you the ability to accomplish anything you can conceive. Pretty much, at least once.
I definitely agree that since it is a spell, in the PH, it is certainly subject to being balanced fairly. I have found that permanently giving someone a feat, magic item, or other ability permanently is EXTREMELY unbalanced. I wouldn't recommend doing this in any DnD campaign.
Therefore, in answer to your question of how do I like the structure you laid out? I don't, because I think the potential for abuse is too extreme. Having said that, however, if a player in my campaign wished for a +2 to his Fort Saves (the equivalent of a feat), I would have no problem granting that wish, and it would probably last for a long time (certainly a week, probably a month, maybe a year or more, depending on how time is tracking in the campaign). Furthermore, if he continues to cast other "long term" wishes for benefit of his character, then the duration for ALL the wishes will be reduced accordingly. (Ie, 1 "feat" benefit = 7 months, 2 "feats" = 3 months, 3 "feats" = 1 month, 4 feats = 1 week, and so on).
Very interesting thread, except for the minor flamewar.
First of all, wishes ARE a tool, that any Wizard, Cleric, or Sorcerer can cast upon obtaining 18th or 19th level. (Miracle referred to generically as wish).
Wishes have very specific stated permanent effects. Mass healing, some ressurection, and attribute enhancement. Period. Everything else "may fulfill" but "may also be limited" by the DM. The reason you don't see this detailed out, is it's hard as hell to detail all the different possibilties, and instead simply say...check with your DM on what seems fair. So, relevant to this discussion, most DM's should have an agreed upon, clearly understood limitations around wish for his players. Failure to do so is robbing the players of an important and valuable tool, and you would be better to yank the XP requirement off, and use it as written, or simply eliminate the spell altogether.
So, in light of providing a valuable resource to my players, we developed a set of guidelines to follow when wishing for anything except what is listed above (magic items, feats, other class abilities, etc.). Without going into the rather detailed version, it simply has the following cardinal rules:
1) The proportion of a wishes' duration is inversely proportional to it's power.
2) Wish is a spell. A spell that affects another being is subject to spell resistance and a saving throw.
3) Wish is ninth level, and requires a sacrifice on the part of the character, and so the power should reflect it.
So, to answer your question of whether or not you could wish for a feat, absolutely. Would it ever be permanent? No. Can a wish grant you the ability to accomplish anything you can conceive. Pretty much, at least once.
I definitely agree that since it is a spell, in the PH, it is certainly subject to being balanced fairly. I have found that permanently giving someone a feat, magic item, or other ability permanently is EXTREMELY unbalanced. I wouldn't recommend doing this in any DnD campaign.
Therefore, in answer to your question of how do I like the structure you laid out? I don't, because I think the potential for abuse is too extreme. Having said that, however, if a player in my campaign wished for a +2 to his Fort Saves (the equivalent of a feat), I would have no problem granting that wish, and it would probably last for a long time (certainly a week, probably a month, maybe a year or more, depending on how time is tracking in the campaign). Furthermore, if he continues to cast other "long term" wishes for benefit of his character, then the duration for ALL the wishes will be reduced accordingly. (Ie, 1 "feat" benefit = 7 months, 2 "feats" = 3 months, 3 "feats" = 1 month, 4 feats = 1 week, and so on).
rushlight
Roll for Initiative!
I think it would be possible to allow a Wish to grant an extra feat. However, there are two ways I can see to help control the process so that it doesn't go wild and destroy the game.
First, consider increasing the cost in XP. Wish /can/ cost more XP than 5k, when using Wish to duplicate a spell that has a higher XP cost. You could extrapolate that and increase the XP needed to grant a feat to whatever limit you feel appropriate.
Second, you could enforce the granting of feats in the same manner that ability increases are handled. No more than five Wished feats per character, and to grant more than one feat requires casting Wish in immediate succession. So if you Wish for one feat, and then a little later you want another feat it would require two wishes just to get the second feat. Unless you are willing to blow the whole 25,000 at once. Even then only if you allow "XP debt" and that would set a character back to 0 XP from almost 8th level.
If you don't allow "XP debt" for this, then it will take slightly more XP since the caster would have to make a few Wish scrolls and wait a while, gain more XP and make a few more scrolls before being able to cast five Wishes at once. After all, the largest XP gap is from 19th to 20th (not including Epic levels) and that's only 19,000 XP. So you are looking at slightly more XP (only 153 XP per scroll) and GP, and also significatly more time required, to gain 5 feats.
Either way, I think you've cut back on all the feat Wishing. No Wizard who wants to get better will blow 25k XP on each comrade (if the Wizard even HAD that much XP). However, granting just one feat to each buddy will almost certainly prevent future feats, since it will take 10k XP just to add one more feat. That's 15k for two feats, and it only gets worse if you add more incrementally (75,000 XP total if you add one feat at a time to one person...)
I'd also say that you couldn't Wish for a feat that you didn't already have the prereq for. Also one Wished for feat couldn't be a prereq for a second Wished for feat at the same casting. In other words, no Wishing for entire feat chains at once... You'll have to spend the full 75k XP for that. That's enough XP for a 17th level caster to become 21st level I believe, or just 1k off. If you can convince a 17th level Wizard to give up gaining four levels to grant 5 feats, I say sure.
First, consider increasing the cost in XP. Wish /can/ cost more XP than 5k, when using Wish to duplicate a spell that has a higher XP cost. You could extrapolate that and increase the XP needed to grant a feat to whatever limit you feel appropriate.
Second, you could enforce the granting of feats in the same manner that ability increases are handled. No more than five Wished feats per character, and to grant more than one feat requires casting Wish in immediate succession. So if you Wish for one feat, and then a little later you want another feat it would require two wishes just to get the second feat. Unless you are willing to blow the whole 25,000 at once. Even then only if you allow "XP debt" and that would set a character back to 0 XP from almost 8th level.
If you don't allow "XP debt" for this, then it will take slightly more XP since the caster would have to make a few Wish scrolls and wait a while, gain more XP and make a few more scrolls before being able to cast five Wishes at once. After all, the largest XP gap is from 19th to 20th (not including Epic levels) and that's only 19,000 XP. So you are looking at slightly more XP (only 153 XP per scroll) and GP, and also significatly more time required, to gain 5 feats.
Either way, I think you've cut back on all the feat Wishing. No Wizard who wants to get better will blow 25k XP on each comrade (if the Wizard even HAD that much XP). However, granting just one feat to each buddy will almost certainly prevent future feats, since it will take 10k XP just to add one more feat. That's 15k for two feats, and it only gets worse if you add more incrementally (75,000 XP total if you add one feat at a time to one person...)
I'd also say that you couldn't Wish for a feat that you didn't already have the prereq for. Also one Wished for feat couldn't be a prereq for a second Wished for feat at the same casting. In other words, no Wishing for entire feat chains at once... You'll have to spend the full 75k XP for that. That's enough XP for a 17th level caster to become 21st level I believe, or just 1k off. If you can convince a 17th level Wizard to give up gaining four levels to grant 5 feats, I say sure.
It seems that a lot of feats are duplicated by spells or magic items. Instead of giving the player the feat, you could fulfill the wording of the wish in other ways. It helps if the players have to word the wish as their character would, i.e. no gaming terms such as feat, ability score, etc.
fuindordm
Adventurer
Re: Wishes for permanent abilities
Although the spell explicity states "the creation of a magic item up to 20,000 gp value" as one of the things you can wish for. 20,000gp items are pretty buff (although less so at 20th level), but can be taken away. Permanent spell effects (a la the permanency spell) are also pretty buff, and can be taken away.
+2 to a fort save is certainly less powerful than, say, a Permanent Endurance spell. I would certainly allow a wish to grant Permanent spell effects up to 3rd level in line with Wish's ability to simulate arcane spells up to 8th level.
So here's another idea: wishes will grant feats, but they are treated as a permanent magical effect rather than an intrinsic feat. As such, a sufficiently powerful Dispel Magic, Break Enchantment, Disjunction, Antimagic Shell, etc. can suppress or remove the feat.
--Ben
ashockney said:
Although the spell explicity states "the creation of a magic item up to 20,000 gp value" as one of the things you can wish for. 20,000gp items are pretty buff (although less so at 20th level), but can be taken away. Permanent spell effects (a la the permanency spell) are also pretty buff, and can be taken away.
+2 to a fort save is certainly less powerful than, say, a Permanent Endurance spell. I would certainly allow a wish to grant Permanent spell effects up to 3rd level in line with Wish's ability to simulate arcane spells up to 8th level.
So here's another idea: wishes will grant feats, but they are treated as a permanent magical effect rather than an intrinsic feat. As such, a sufficiently powerful Dispel Magic, Break Enchantment, Disjunction, Antimagic Shell, etc. can suppress or remove the feat.
--Ben
