To the Official Folks: How will Wishes affect Feats?

[HEL Pit Fiend]

3e is about tough choices and if you feel that you can't get everything you want, congratulations! You're playing 3e.

Preach-on brotha, preach-on...

I think I'm experiencing a little deja-vu here.....

 

[Junkheap]

As i stated earlier, wishing/miracle for feats is NOT good. It makes the characters a lot more powerrfull than they should be. A pit fiend gets wish. Even though it is once a year, they live for a LONG LONG time. Now why, do they have a feat list? They should have all the feats. Thier abilities should all be 5 higher. It just doesnt make any sense. You can only get physical attributes(str, con, dex, cha, int, wis), not skilled attributed(eg feats).

 

[Arravis]

**You can only get physical attributes(str, con, dex, cha, int, wis), not skilled attributed(eg feats).**

The Players handbook makes no mention of that, it leaves Wish quite open-ended actually and without real restrictions as to what it can affect. That is the entire point of the Wish spell I thought. There are limits to what it can do, power-wise, but not in scope, like saying it can't affect skills or feats. The limit and impact of Wish needs to be set by each individual DM. The way I do it is that you can only Wish for two feats in your lifetime, that's it. So in my game world, the pit fiend does have limits and doesn't have every feat. Another thing to keep in mind is that Wish still has an XP cost, one that the pit fiend must be able to pay.

 

[Junkheap]

**You can only get physical attributes(str, con, dex, cha, int, wis), not skilled attributed(eg feats).**

The Players handbook makes no mention of that, it leaves Wish quite open-ended actually and without real restrictions as to what it can affect. That is the entire point of the Wish spell I thought. There are limits to what it can do, power-wise, but not in scope, like saying it can't affect skills or feats. The limit and impact of Wish needs to be set by each individual DM. The way I do it is that you can only Wish for two feats in your lifetime, that's it. So in my game world, the pit fiend does have limits and doesn't have every feat. Another thing to keep in mind is that Wish still has an XP cost, one that the pit fiend must be able to pay.

I know it makes no mention of that in the PHB, but neither does it say you can. As far as i understand it, unless it explicitly says it in the rule books, you can't do it. You have to take it word for word. It doesn't say that wish could be used to make 15000 gp, even though you can make a 15000gp item. Now which one would be more valuable and broken? Its the same thing with wish/miracle. Ultimately it IS up to the DM, but it would be a joke if the DM let him have it.

I mean, you bend or in some cases you say it is allowed, but then you limit him because it is too powerfull? If it was meant to do it in the beginning, it would have been either stated in the book, OR would have had a limit already implemented in the book like ability bonuses.

And about the pit fiend, are you telling me you go around and give the monster XP's to determine what they can wish for? A MM base pit fiend doesn't have class levels. So does that mean it can't use wish unless it had classes so that it had XP? And either way, a monster of that stature could do the same things a PC can do when they have wish. They cast wish, and in his case go beat down some demons in the BW and recast next year.

In the lord of the iron fortress, i think a genie does it to his giant counterpart or slave. He raises his abilities. I don't hink anybody will lose sleep over the fact that you ignore the xp for monsters casting wish.

 

[Arravis]

** I know it makes no mention of that in the PHB, but neither does it say you can. As far as i understand it, unless it explicitly says it in the rule books, you can't do it.**

Wish is an open ended spell with no specifics, how can you possibly claim this? I don't understand that at all. That doesn't mean that is has unlimited power, but it CAN do almost anything. It might distort, it might limit in duration, etc, but it'll do something not just what's in the PHB.

**Ultimately it IS up to the DM, but it would be a joke if the DM let him have it.**

Why would it be a joke for a DM to allow a player to wish for a feat? I limit it to two total wishes. I don't think it's a joke, it sounds pretty damn reasonable to me. It doesn't to you, that's your call. But there's absolutely nothing in the description of the spell to say that either you or I are wrong. It's the DM's call.

**If it was meant to do it in the beginning, it would have been either stated in the book, OR would have had a limit already implemented in the book like ability bonuses.**

Items can grant stat bonuses, items can also grant feats. I don't see a problem, I actually see an established presidence (sp?).

**And about the pit fiend, are you telling me you go around and give the monster XP's to determine what they can wish for?**

I don't keep tight track no, but XP costs are XP costs, why should it hurt less for NPC's? That seems more then a bit unfair. XP=life energy, no one gives up their very life and soul essence easily. Even the gods have limits on XP (Deities and Demigods has rules on this), so yeah, there is a limit.

**I don't hink anybody will lose sleep over the fact that you ignore the xp for monsters casting wish.**

Well, I try to make a fair and realistic world when I DM, where the NPC's don't have unfair advantages over the PC's.

 

[Arravis]

*edited the above post*
Fixed a bad typo that totally changed the meaning of what I was saying, lol. Sorry to those that were left confused.

 

[Junkheap]

[BWhy would it be a joke for a DM to allow a player to wish for two wishes? I don't think it's a joke, it sounds pretty damn reasonable to me. It doesn't to you, that's your call. But there's absolutely nothing in the description of the spell to say that either you or I are wrong. It's the DM's call.

**I don't hink anybody will lose sleep over the fact that you ignore the xp for monsters casting wish.**

Well, I try to make a fair and realistic world when I DM, where the NPC's don't have unfair advantages over the PC's. [/B]

SNIP(remark about wishing for 2 feats has been removed). I knew thats not what you meant

And about the xp used for wishes by creatures, as stated by my example in a WOTC adventure: Lord of the iron fortress. You don't lose Xp when casting wish as a spell like ability. So your previous statement of trying to make xp count for creatures(pit fiend) really doesnt apply. I just hope you realize that giving creatures like that feats only makes them and the reatures around them stronger. Hope you adjust CR or give bonus xp for fighting something that ISN'T supposed to be like that in the first place.

 

[hong]

Why would a Wizard care about all the bonus feats a fighter gets if he could spend a mere 5000 XP for them? Why would a Sorcerer care about the bonus feats a Wizard gets? He wouldn't. Yes 5000 XP is alot, but not as much as 3 levels. Even in epic levels bonus feats are just about the only thing balancing each class with every other. Allowing people to wish for more feats completely destroys that balance.

That's exaggerated. Wishing for ten feats might do bad things to game balance, but wishing for one feat almost certainly won't. And there's nothing to stop the DM from saying that you can only get one feat at most. As a precedent, consider that you can only ever get +5 to any one stat, no matter how many wishes you cast, so the ability to do something once doesn't imply the ability to do it unlimited times.

 

[Arravis]

Yes, I always adjust the CR. And I rarely use intelligent monsters "as is", the way I rarely use humans "as is" (ie: level 1 commoner). I will normally give them a few levels depending on the kind of life they've had, etc.

Funnily enough, in our group we don't really give XP for just fighting. We give XP for overcoming challenges and role-playing. That way character's don't feel forced into combat just to get the XP and such, we're much more interested in them playing their characters personalities and less meta-gaming and power-gaming. We normally level every 20-24 hours of gaming btw, which works nicely.

P.S.: I don't have the Iron Fortress and didn't knwo about that. To be honest, I really don't like that, why would their magics not use up life-essence?

 

[Junkheap]

Yes, I always adjust the CR. And I rarely use intelligent monsters "as is", the way I rarely use humans "as is" (ie: level 1 commoner). I will normally give them a few levels depending on the kind of life they've had, etc.

Funnily enough, in our group we don't really give XP for just fighting. We give XP for overcoming challenges and role-playing. That way character's don't feel forced into combat just to get the XP and such, we're much more interested in them playing their characters personalities and less meta-gaming and power-gaming. We normally level every 20-24 hours of gaming btw, which works nicely.

P.S.: I don't have the Iron Fortress and didn't knwo about that. To be honest, I really don't like that, why would their magics not use up life-essence?

I didn't realize how powerfull having wish as a spell like ability was until i actually checked it. As per the MM, spell like abilities are like spells except there are no V, S or M as well as XP components.

One thing i might consider tho, is exchanging a feat for another. By 18th lvl the mage might not want spell focus evocation, and want it in necromancy instead. I would probably let that happen.

In terms of balance in regards to wishing for feats, i think it benefits mages and even more so clerics too much. Clerics are penalized with little feats because they are already capable of a LOT. They have to choose wisely. Mages aren't so constricted as clerics, but with the right feats they can become a LOT bigger threats. 2 extra metamagic feats is nothing to laugh at. It is power they never had before.

I just do not want to run into the problem of going tit for tat with the pc's. It just boosts up the nastiness at high levels. There are already many deadly ways to obliterate things at high levels, i don't want to add to the masacre. And yes a couple of feats to mages/clerics will do this.