To the Official Folks: How will Wishes affect Feats?
- Thread starter Edena_of_Neith
- Start date
Thanee
First Post
Re: How good is this framework for granting Feats via Wish and Miracle spells?
It's redundant.
Wishes can grant feats within reasonable limits is all you need as a rule.
(or Wishes cannot grant feats under any circumstances, if that's what you prefer.)
But you obviously like to describe every possibility in detail, so hey, why not.
Bye
Thanee
Edena_of_Neith said:
It's redundant.
Wishes can grant feats within reasonable limits is all you need as a rule.
(or Wishes cannot grant feats under any circumstances, if that's what you prefer.)
But you obviously like to describe every possibility in detail, so hey, why not.
Bye
Thanee
HEL Pit Fiend
First Post
In my view, the 3e DnD feat selection process is about making tough choices. You are supposed to have a limited number of feats, hence the 1 every 3rd level rule. Feats are what separates your unique Rogue or Wizard from the next guy's Rogue and Wizard. The more feats everyone takes, the less unique our characters become.
For example, for the Paladin in our group, the guy had the choice between taking the Whirlwind route or the Great Cleave and Archery feat routes, that was a big decision for his character concept. The guy probably spent days if not weeks deciding which route to take.
The whole process of deciding to get this feat and not that one is actually really fun.
If I new I could Wish for 2, 3, 4, 5 or more feats, the decision of which feats to take become less arduous, I have less tough choices to make and the chances of my paladin having the same feats as your paladin are greater, therefore we are less unique.
IMO, more feats for everyone means less fun, and what's the whole point of playing DnD? Could it be to have fun?
For example, for the Paladin in our group, the guy had the choice between taking the Whirlwind route or the Great Cleave and Archery feat routes, that was a big decision for his character concept. The guy probably spent days if not weeks deciding which route to take.
The whole process of deciding to get this feat and not that one is actually really fun.
If I new I could Wish for 2, 3, 4, 5 or more feats, the decision of which feats to take become less arduous, I have less tough choices to make and the chances of my paladin having the same feats as your paladin are greater, therefore we are less unique.
IMO, more feats for everyone means less fun, and what's the whole point of playing DnD? Could it be to have fun?
Crothian
First Post
HEL Pit Fiend said:
More of the wrong feats are less fun. I like to use feats as a way to define people. There are many feats that give personality to characters. None of these are combat feats, though so few people ever take them. More feats only blurrs the lines between characters if they all take the same extra feats. I don't think that would be the case though. And you can't plan your character counting on extra feat through wishes. You might not get that high a level, and even when you get there who's to say you'll be able to get the wishes? Feats are about hard choices, and I think allowing a few extra will only make those choices hardier if people are not just automatically picking the most powerful feats.
Just because Wish says you can wish for greater effects than those listed, still doesnt mean that you can do anything.
"As Limited Wish, but with fewer LIMITS"
Even there it says that Wish has limits, and it's often up to the DM to define those limits. The best way to handle Wish is to restrict it to effects similar in power to those listed. Don't punish people simply based upon wording, that's the same 2nd edition crap that was (thankfully) abandoned in 3rd edition. Only if the players are trying to be extremely ridiculous in their Wishes should they be punished. The list of effects under the spells description are all things that can be SAFELY done with wish, and should NEVER be screwed over by the DM, EVER. Only when attempting to get greater things is there any risk. When doing those things that are listed, there is no risk, period.
As far as wishing for feats, I personally would never allow it. The reason is that feats are an essential element of game balance in 3rd edition.
Why would a Wizard care about all the bonus feats a fighter gets if he could spend a mere 5000 XP for them? Why would a Sorcerer care about the bonus feats a Wizard gets? He wouldn't. Yes 5000 XP is alot, but not as much as 3 levels. Even in epic levels bonus feats are just about the only thing balancing each class with every other. Allowing people to wish for more feats completely destroys that balance.
The challenge rating of creatures assumes that they have a certain number of feats. Allowing more feats means that a character will be far too powerful for his level, especially given the exp cost. And at epic levels 5000 exp isn't very much at all, especially given that most items and epic spells cost several times that to create. And there is no sense in comparing feats to ability enhancements, as that is like comparing apples to oranges.
It is clear that Wish was never intended to grant feats, for obvious reasons. The epic level handbook also goes into depth about the wish spell and its LIMITS, and clearly the language there suggests that such blatant abuses of the spell shouldn't be allowed.
Again, wish can't do anything. It isn't an ultimate spell like it was in second edition. Mere wording is not enough to change that. If you want to allow extra feats in your game, that is up to you. But at least stop to consider what I have said, as it will unblalance your game if you do. If you don't think that the normal rules offer enough feats, then give everyone more of them, not just those with a certain spell. That's the only fair way to do it.
"As Limited Wish, but with fewer LIMITS"
Even there it says that Wish has limits, and it's often up to the DM to define those limits. The best way to handle Wish is to restrict it to effects similar in power to those listed. Don't punish people simply based upon wording, that's the same 2nd edition crap that was (thankfully) abandoned in 3rd edition. Only if the players are trying to be extremely ridiculous in their Wishes should they be punished. The list of effects under the spells description are all things that can be SAFELY done with wish, and should NEVER be screwed over by the DM, EVER. Only when attempting to get greater things is there any risk. When doing those things that are listed, there is no risk, period.
As far as wishing for feats, I personally would never allow it. The reason is that feats are an essential element of game balance in 3rd edition.
Why would a Wizard care about all the bonus feats a fighter gets if he could spend a mere 5000 XP for them? Why would a Sorcerer care about the bonus feats a Wizard gets? He wouldn't. Yes 5000 XP is alot, but not as much as 3 levels. Even in epic levels bonus feats are just about the only thing balancing each class with every other. Allowing people to wish for more feats completely destroys that balance.
The challenge rating of creatures assumes that they have a certain number of feats. Allowing more feats means that a character will be far too powerful for his level, especially given the exp cost. And at epic levels 5000 exp isn't very much at all, especially given that most items and epic spells cost several times that to create. And there is no sense in comparing feats to ability enhancements, as that is like comparing apples to oranges.
It is clear that Wish was never intended to grant feats, for obvious reasons. The epic level handbook also goes into depth about the wish spell and its LIMITS, and clearly the language there suggests that such blatant abuses of the spell shouldn't be allowed.
Again, wish can't do anything. It isn't an ultimate spell like it was in second edition. Mere wording is not enough to change that. If you want to allow extra feats in your game, that is up to you. But at least stop to consider what I have said, as it will unblalance your game if you do. If you don't think that the normal rules offer enough feats, then give everyone more of them, not just those with a certain spell. That's the only fair way to do it.
Apok
First Post
I know kung-fu. Yeah, right...
Just to add to the general pile, here's my own personal ruling on wishes and feats.
Wishes cannot grant a character the use of a new ingrained ability. This includes feats, increased BAB, automatic spell knowledge and class abilities. My reasoning for this is as follows. All of the above mentioned items can be gained only through experience (the fact that some magical items do grant the use of feats is something of an anomaly which I will ignore for the purpose of this post). As such, a Wish (or Miracle) cannot grant applied knowledge which would normally come from training or experience. A character couldn't just sit in the chair while a wizard casts Wish on him and suddenly, "I know kung-fu." No way, sorry, doesn't work like that. A Wish might teach you the theory behind a concept, but it wont adjust your physical reactions. That comes with time.
Just to add to the general pile, here's my own personal ruling on wishes and feats.
Wishes cannot grant a character the use of a new ingrained ability. This includes feats, increased BAB, automatic spell knowledge and class abilities. My reasoning for this is as follows. All of the above mentioned items can be gained only through experience (the fact that some magical items do grant the use of feats is something of an anomaly which I will ignore for the purpose of this post). As such, a Wish (or Miracle) cannot grant applied knowledge which would normally come from training or experience. A character couldn't just sit in the chair while a wizard casts Wish on him and suddenly, "I know kung-fu." No way, sorry, doesn't work like that. A Wish might teach you the theory behind a concept, but it wont adjust your physical reactions. That comes with time.
Dash Dannigan
First Post
I'm a bit late in coming to this but...
Might I cut in for a moment and ask a quick question that may help the situation.
Does a character KNOW what a feat is?
Ah, heck, I'll answer that now myself. Uh, no. Hehe, the character isn't going to ask "I want the feat:<whatever>" No. A "character" will not say this, though a player might. Like as not the player is asking for the wish the character is.
It might help to consider this small point. Thus, a character in effect CANNOT ask for a feat, it's impossible as they are not cognitively aware of the game mechanics of their fictional world.
Might I cut in for a moment and ask a quick question that may help the situation.
Does a character KNOW what a feat is?
Ah, heck, I'll answer that now myself. Uh, no. Hehe, the character isn't going to ask "I want the feat:<whatever>" No. A "character" will not say this, though a player might. Like as not the player is asking for the wish the character is.
It might help to consider this small point. Thus, a character in effect CANNOT ask for a feat, it's impossible as they are not cognitively aware of the game mechanics of their fictional world.
What about: Wishes can grant feats but the first feat requires one wish(5000xp), the secound requires two wishes(10000xp), the third requires three wishes(15000xp),...?
Of course you can't wish for feats you don't have the prequisites for(i.e. for whirlwind attack you have to wish for a few other feats first).
Of course you can't wish for feats you don't have the prequisites for(i.e. for whirlwind attack you have to wish for a few other feats first).
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