To the Official Folks: How will Wishes affect Feats?

Very well put, Karinsdad.

The fact is that a feat is a rarer thing than a level. Much rarer in most cases. Spending "25% of a level" to gain a feat can really screw with the inherent game balance assumptions.

Admittedly if I were DM, I would probably allow it for some of the weaker and narrow feats. It is playing with fire, though. Be careful!

Is a feat as powerful as a level? In some cases, yes. There are some interesting feat chains that become immensely easier to acquire with access to extra feats.
 

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As far as the "5000xp is a lot for a feat" argument, I think if you offered all PCs the chance to spend 5000xp, at any time, to gain a feat, you would get a lot of takers once you get past 10th level. And a few takers even a lower levels.

From a game balance perspective either 5000xp is a fair price for a feat or not. That is the key question.

Who can cast a Wish spell is entirely secondary. That only affects how often Wishing for feats is a problem, not whether Wishing for feats causes problems.
 

Vaxalon said:


No, it would happen in any society where people in power are respected.
Like most sweeping general statements, this one is also quite false. :cool:

Sorry, this won't happen in a good-aligned society, dude. (I can see all others - including LN -, though. *shrug*) :)
 


Ridley's Cohort said:
As far as the "5000xp is a lot for a feat" argument, I think if you offered all PCs the chance to spend 5000xp, at any time, to gain a feat, you would get a lot of takers once you get past 10th level. And a few takers even a lower levels.

From a game balance perspective either 5000xp is a fair price for a feat or not. That is the key question.

Who can cast a Wish spell is entirely secondary. That only affects how often Wishing for feats is a problem, not whether Wishing for feats causes problems.

I can think of very few feats which I'd rather have than a level, or even that I'd rather have than 5000xp for any character.

Weapon Specialization. Blindsight 5' radius. Quicken Spell.

The feats at the top of their respective chains such as Whirlwind attack and Great Cleave are overrated, I think. They're mostly useful if you're fighting popcorn, not very useful against creatures with an appropriate CR.

Here's an idea: the cost of a wished feat is 1000xp times the minimum level at which you could have taken the feat with optimal choices, over and above the 5000xp cost of the wish. If the character doesn't meet the prerequisites, this cost is doubled.

Here's another idea: would you allow a wish to do the following?
a) Make a skill a class skill for you
b) Make an exclusive skill a class skill for you
c) Give you some ability with cantrips (like a gnome for example)
d) Give you a permanent feather fall
e) Give you the ability to speak with birds
f) Make the weapon specialization feat available to you

Now ask yourself: for those to which you answered 'yes', are they more or less powerful than a feat?

--Ben
 

fuindordm said:


I can think of very few feats which I'd rather have than a level, or even that I'd rather have than 5000xp for any character.

Weapon Specialization. Blindsight 5' radius. Quicken Spell.

The feats at the top of their respective chains such as Whirlwind attack and Great Cleave are overrated, I think. They're mostly useful if you're fighting popcorn, not very useful against creatures with an appropriate CR.

Here's an idea: the cost of a wished feat is 1000xp times the minimum level at which you could have taken the feat with optimal choices, over and above the 5000xp cost of the wish. If the character doesn't meet the prerequisites, this cost is doubled.

Here's another idea: would you allow a wish to do the following?
a) Make a skill a class skill for you
b) Make an exclusive skill a class skill for you
c) Give you some ability with cantrips (like a gnome for example)
d) Give you a permanent feather fall
e) Give you the ability to speak with birds
f) Make the weapon specialization feat available to you

Now ask yourself: for those to which you answered 'yes', are they more or less powerful than a feat?

--Ben

Some of them already are feats, or something reasonably close.

a) Similar to the Cosmopolitan feat
b) Not even possible with a feat, AFAIK
c) Magical Training feat...

Anyway, I'd answer 'no' to all of the above. I would consider 'yes' if it were only viable for a limited amount of time (not permanent).
 

It's like most other things... it's ok, unless you use it excessively.

I would allow wishes for feat gaining within reasonable limits (depending on the character in question, the feat asked for and many other variables). If what he asks for becomes unreasonable, the wish will not work as intended.

Bye
Thanee
 

Thanee said:
It's like most other things... it's ok, unless you use it excessively.

I would allow wishes for feat gaining within reasonable limits (depending on the character in question, the feat asked for and many other variables). If what he asks for becomes unreasonable, the wish will not work as intended.

Bye
Thanee

That's the truth. :)

It seems to me peope lare worried about the excessive uses. That's the DMs job to make sure it doesn't happen.
 
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How good is this framework for granting Feats via Wish and Miracle spells?

Ok, I've changed my mind, and wish to retract some of my stance.

Here is how I would handle Wishes, Miracles, and Feats, version 2.0

A character who can use the Wish or Miracle spell may use that spell to obtain a Feat.
This drains the character 5,000 experience points.
If this drain would cause the character to lose a level, the character cannot cast the Wish or Miracle spell to gain a Feat.

A character who has sufficient experience to use 2 Wishes or Miracle spells, and not lose a level in the process, may do so to gain 2 Feats.
This will cost the character 10,000 experience points.

And, if a character has enough experience to use 3 Wishes or Miracle spells, and not lose a level in the process, the character may do so to gain 3 Feats.
This will cost the character 15,000 experience points.

At 17th level, it requires 17,000 experience points to level.
Therefore, 3 Wishes or Miracle spells are the maximum possible the character could cast, gaining 3 Feats.

At 18th level, it requires 18,000 experience points to level.
Same restriction as above.

At 19th level, it requires 19,000 experience points to level.
Same restriction as above.

And at 20th level, it requires 20,000 experience points to level.
Still the same restriction as above, since the 20,000th experience point would put the character at level 21.

Any Player Character with a Wish or Miracle spell can use it to grant another Player Character a Feat.
This kind of transaction is strictly between the players.

It is not likely that a Non Player Character who can cast Wish or Miracle spells is going to use those spells to grant Feats to Player Characters.
Only under the most extraordinary circumstances would this be done.
Such circumstances as:

The PC is the only character who can handle the Artifact, the Artifact is the only thing that can save the city, the NPC actually cares greatly about what happens to the city and her people, and the NPC is of good alignment.
The PC has Raised, Resurrected, or Wished the NPC back to life when nobody else was going to do so, and the NPC is of good or neutral alignment.
The PC has directly saved the life of the NPC, and it is clearly obvious to the NPC that this is the case, and the NPC is of good alignment.
The PC has won the love of the NPC (and likely married the NPC), the NPC is of good or neutral alignment, and there is an important or crucial reason the PC needs the extra Feat.
The PC is on a mission that is crucial to the survival of a major city, or even an entire country, and the King and his High Mages confer in council, and decide to grant Feats to aid the PC.
The NPC knows he or she is going to die if the PC cannot save him or her, and bulking up the PC increases his or her chances of countering the threat to the NPC.
The PC is the savior of the entire nation, the NPC cherished the nation and her people, and the NPC is of good alignment.
The PC approaches an evil NPC, and that evil NPC chooses to grant a Feat ... and there will be always be the secret price for this favor.

Such situations as these do occur in the game, so it is possible the PC (or even PCs) could obtain NPC help.

However, they can never just walk right up to an NPC, and ask for a Wish or Miracle, and hope for such aid - unless they can pull off an Epic Diplomacy Check (DC 100 or so, and the dice roll isn't enough - the character would have to roleplay it out, and roleplay well.)

So yes, if the PC mage or magistress, or cleric, or sorcerer, spends enough experience, he or she can be brimming with Feats by the time he or she reaches 20th level.
And, it is obvious that some characters and NPCs might take that path, choosing diversity over sheer power (the point of multi-classing ...)

- - -

No Wish spell can confer upon a PC or NPC an Epic Feat.
The same applies to the Miracle spell.
It is absolutely impossible for any spell of 9th level or under to confer an Epic Feat.

An Epic Spell can confer an Epic Feat.
It is beyond the scope of Yours Truly's knowledge to determine, at this time, what magnitude of Epic Spell would be needed, how often it could be used, and what Feats it would confer.

- - -

A Wish or Miracle spell can confer upon a character some Feats that are normally obtainable only at the start.
A Wish or Miracle spell could, for example, confer Spellcasting Prodigy upon a character.

However, no Wish or Miracle spell can confer the Spellfire Feat upon the character.
That would require an Epic Spell to accomplish.

The matter of Feats requiring you take them at the start would be handled on a case by case basis.

- - -

It is legal for a character of low level (1st through 3rd) to travel with a character of high level (17th through 20th.)
Thus, the low level character could gain extra Feats if the high level character decides this.

If the low level character and the high level character are played by different players, this is an interplayer matter, and to be left to the players to decide.

If the low level character and the high level character are played by the same player, the high level character becomes an NPC under the control of the DM the moment the request for Wishes or Miracles is made, or the moment the high level character decides on his or her own to throw these spells.
The player must then interact with the DM, and convince the DM's NPC that a Wish or Miracle spell for Feats should be granted.
If the DM decides such is not to be granted, that decision is final (and likely permanent,) and the high level character reverts back to the player under that condition.

There is an obvious drawback to this scenario, in any case.
The probability of the low level character surviving the adventure is very poor, because the DM is going to throw challenges worthy of the high level character.

Skulking around in the back, hiding, being carried in a Bag of Holding, going in Rope Tricks prior to every battle, etc. ... everything the low level character does to survive, is only going to increase his survival chances marginally.
Simply put, the low level character (and those protecting him or her) simply do not know where the threat will come from, or how it will arrive.

Of course, the low level character can be Resurrected or Wished or Miracled back to life.
That is a player matter, and to be left up to them to decide.
Repeated deaths and Resurrections of the low level character are going to be very costly.

These are the circumstances under which I think it would be ... reasonable ... for low level characters and high level characters alike to obtain Feats from the Wish and Miracle spells.

What do you people think of the framework set out above?
 
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