To the Official Folks: How will Wishes affect Feats?

Vaxalon said:


Sure they are. Stat increases are explicitly allowed by the rules, feats are not explicitly allowed.

Just because they are allowed by the rules does not make them easier to wish for "in-character."

How do you wish for more constitution? The character certainly does not know his "constitution" score - or even that he's got one. He'd wish to be sturdier - or heartier - or get sick less often, something like that.

It's essentially the same role-playing problem as wishing for feats. The only difference is that the rules support wishing for stat increases - that doesn't change the role-playing aspect one bit.
 

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Personally, I think only a total ass of a DM would screw with a stat increase Wish, unless it was so poorly worded that... well, let's just say it would have to be really, really BAD wording. The kind of wording that would sink to previously unreached depths of idiocy and incoherency.

Vax is right. Stat increase Wishing is explicity allowed (one might even say 'encouraged') in the rules. There's no reason to twist it, unless the DM is trying to be a total jerk.
 

If a character spends a Wish to gain a feat, the DM should remember to add the value of that Wish into the estimated wealth of that PC. Otherwise you get metagame headaches.

The reason the rules do not discuss wishing for feats is that kind of thing is harder to create guidelines for than finding the objective value of a magic item.

From one POV, a feat is a rarer and more precious thing that a few stat point or even a class level. Feats help define the mechanics of your character. For that reason some feats just don't seem appropriate to wish for.

IMHO... Toughness? Yes. Proficiency in a particular weapon? Yes. Dodge? Yes. Spring Attack? No. Combat Reflexes? No.

Just my two cents.

A limit of something like 1, 2, or 3 feats from wishes would make sense, too.
 

***unless the DM is trying to be a total jerk.***

To be honest, it sounds like we have alot of those DM's here. If your player proposes a wish that you think is unreasonable, TELL THEM! Don't just wait to screw them over once they have wasted 5,000 experience points. That IS being a jerk. It's the DM's job to let his players know what is the limit of power in his campaign. Different DM's have different ideas of what is too much power. Don't hand out "justice" to the players cause you feel they are being greedy, they don't know what is "too much" until you tell them. It's simply human nature to try to get the most for the least, it's the reason we excel, don't punish that. Just set your limits clearly and concisely.
 
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Arravis said:
***unless the DM is trying to be a total jerk.***

To be honest, it sounds like we have alot of those DM's here. If your player proposes a wish that you think is unreasonable, TELL THEM! Don't just wait to screw them over once they have wasted 5,000 experience points. That IS being a jerk. It's the DM's job to let his players know what is the limit of power in his campaign. Different DM's have different ideas of what is too much power. Don't hand out "justice" to the players cause you feel they are being greedy, they don't know what is "too much" until you tell them. It's simply human nature to try to get the most for the least, it's the reason we excel, don't punish that. Just set your limits clearly and concisely.

Ditto here. I think I would go with 7 feats wishable, no epic-feats. As that is the number of feats 'gained' over the course of their 20-level career (you could also argue for 6 feats, but IMC commoners are zero-level and lack a feat).
 

Given that,

1) Wish can simulate arcane spells, so a wish can create permanent spell effects for the character.

and

2) Many permanent spell effects are more powerful and/or useful than many feats.

It seems eminently reasonable to allow a wish to grant feats. If the feat seems excessively powerful, allow it to be dispelled as if it were a Permanency spell.

Example 1: "I wish I were more capable of resisting magic"

Possible outcomes:
Permanent resistance cantrip cast on player (incurs a small extra xp cost).
Player gets the Iron Will feat.

Example 2: "I wish I could understand all languages"

Possible outcomes:
Permanent Comprehend Languages cast on player.
Player receives a Helm of Comprehending Languages.

True, there are stacking issues... the player will likely already have a magic item that boosts their saves and feats stack with everything. I maintain, however, that most feats are less useful than +2 to an ability score, and at least some (e.g. Dodge, Improved Initiative) are about half as useful and therefore within the regime of a Wish.

--Ben
 

I set the bar at one Feat, per level, per person (able to throw Wish or Miracle) approached.

Thus, a 3rd level character could approach an archmagistress, pay her for a Wish spell, and thus gain a Feat
Then, the 3rd level character could approach the High Cleric, pay him, and gain a Miracle, and thus a second Feat.
And then, yes, the 3rd level character could approach the Great Sorcerer, and pay him, and thus gain another Feat through the Wish spell.

One Feat, per level, per person approached.

However, if that character then went back to the archmagistress, and paid for another Wish, that character and the archmagistress would find that the Wish simply failed (the archmagistress still loses the experience, and the fee must still be paid.)
Ditto the High Cleric and the Great Sorcerer.

Furthermore, the Archmagistress would NOT grant the character a Feat through a Wish spell, unless the character was VERY convincing and said some VERY clever and persuading things.
Ditto the High Cleric and the Great Sorcerer.

You want to know why?

How would your archmagistress character feel if, when she looked out the window of her manor, there was a line of adventurers standing beyond the gates?
Your archmagistress knows that each and EVERY wish is going to cost her dearly in experience points.
And just who are these people out there?
They are strangers.
Perhaps, they are enemies, or potential enemies (to a mage or magistress, any spellcaster is a potential foe.)
And perhaps she does not wish to be bothered at all hours of the day and night by strangers banging on her front door!!

The likely result of this is the Watch appearing and asking everyone to leave ... immediately.
The next time anyone shows up, they will be arrested for vagrancy (or whatever the Watch can think up) and jailed for the night.
The NEXT time people show up, the Watch will arrest them on charges of trespassing, spying, and other serious charges, involving fines, whippings, a long prison term, and perhaps even hanging.

The Watch will do this because the magistress is a powerful person in the city, and powerful people are influential in the city politics.
This archmagistress has the favor of many of the top politicians in town, and perhaps she is one of the top politicians herself.

And she has better things to do with her time - and her experience points - than to waste them on a bunch of uninvited strangers loitering around on her property.

Now, if the audacious 3rd level character goes through special channels, winning the favor of minor politicians, worming his way into the goodwill of important people, and otherwise brownnosing it, he ... might ... be granted an audience with the archmagistress.
And then, and only then, could he proffer his request.
He had better have a GOOD reason for his request, or he will receive the cold shoulder, and after the formalities are finished he will be shown the door.
And he will NOT be able to obtain an audience with that archmagistress again.

A better idea, for the 3rd level character, is to make no request at all, but instead to attempt to win the friendship of the archmagistress (which won't be easy.)
Once he has won her friendship, she will be more kindly in her dealings with him (but will still not grant that Wish.)

However, if the 3rd level character forms a deep and strong friendship with the archmagistress, so that eventually he can enter and leave her manor at will, and all her minions and servants know him by his first name, and everyone in the city knows this particular fellow is favored by the archmagistress ... and then if the intrepid adventurer must undertake a deadly quest ... then PERHAPS the archmagistress will grant him a Wish, and thus a Feat.
Then, if he survives the adventure, he can return to the manor of the archmagistress, and renew his relationship with her (along with all that entails and implies) and being now 4th level he can gain another Feat from a Wish cast by her.

And that is how I would handle gaining Feats by Wishes.

Of course, there is always incredible luck.

If a character of low level gained a Ring of Three Wishes, one of those would grant him a Feat (the other two would not, and he might well waste them trying to obtain more Feats - such is the price of greed.)
A character drawing the right card out of a Deck of Many Things could gain three Wishes, and thus one Feat.
Certain Tomes and special magical items might confer a permanent Feat (and many, a temporary Feat-like ability.)

However, the real way to gain one free extra Feat per level via the Wish spell (or more than one Feat per level, if more than one high level caster is involved) is for the character to ROLEPLAY, and to WORK, and to STRIVE for the goodwill and friendship of these high level NPCs.
That means sweat, blood, and tears, and then more sweat, blood, and tears, and frustration, and pain, but ... the rewards are worth it.

If a player has two characters, one high level and one low level ... and the player is considering having his high level character throw a Wish to give his low level character a Feat, his high level character becomes an NPC under my control.
This is temporary, until the Wishing for Feat matter is resolved, one way or another.

I honestly think the attitude above is reasonable, concerning this matter.

I would LOVE to have one or more free Feats per level.
And because I would want that so badly, I would make the effort and the sacrifices necessary to obtain what I wanted ... and a whole adventure could be woven around my efforts.
If I succeeded, I would be thrilled.
If I failed, I would try again somewhere else.

No adventurer ever gives in and quits!
The intrepid adventurer (and his or her player) can never be put down! :)
 
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HEL Pit Fiend said:



You may be right, but there are many abuses that can take place. The first 2 wishes my wizard or fighter would take are evasion and improved evasion. ...
These are not really feats, though... (Still, they are close enough to be treated similarly, I guess. :))

Arravis said:
***unless the DM is trying to be a total jerk.***

To be honest, it sounds like we have alot of those DM's here. ...
Quite so... :D


Edena_of_Neith said:


... The NEXT time people show up, the Watch will arrest them on charges of trespassing, spying, and other serious charges, involving fines, whippings, a long prison term, and perhaps even hanging.

The Watch will do this because the magistress is a powerful person in the city, and powerful people are influential in the city politics.
This archmagistress has the favor of many of the top politicians in town, and perhaps she is one of the top politicians herself.
...
This would only work in an evil society (or maybe CN or N). :p
 


Personally, I take the opposite view of most people here and would not allow wishing for feats.

My reason is simple.

Feats are generally acquired once every three levels. They are rare. They are special. They define a character. They often have built in chains that prevent certain feats from being used in conjuncture with other certain feats for some classes.

Just because WotC and other D20 companies actually have written about 300 feats overall and everyone and his brother wants to try a lot of them out with their characters does not mean that PCs (or NPCs for that matter) should be able to get more than their allotment.

Fighters get no spell casting capability at all. Instead they get feats.

Allowing Wizard, Sorcerers, and Clerics the ability to trade experience for feats lessens the Fighter. IMO. And at 5000 xp, that is less than a third of a level at 17th level. Lower level characters lose more experience than that dying and getting raised and gain nothing for it.

High level spell casters have enough power without giving them more feats. Again, IMO.

Also, it basically takes 2 Wishes to increase an ability score modifier by +1. That results in a 5% increase in ability for certain abilities. In order to balance this, one feat adds 100% ability (i.e. you gain the ability to do something that you could not do). So, if your average +1 ability score modifier affects 10 things (skills, combat abilities, AC, hit points, saves, whatever, and 10 is probably a little high on average), it means that it is equal to a 50% increase in one ability (skill, whatever). Hence, power-wise, it would take 4 or 5 wishes to equal one feat (rough approximation). YMMV.

So, it sounds like power gaming to me. Bad enough that wishes allow ability score increases in the first place.
 

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