To the Official Folks: How will Wishes affect Feats?

[Edena_of_Neith]

How I would handle Wishes and Feats

Here is my take on the matter:

I would allow any mage or magistress capable of throwing a Wish to grant himself or herself one, and only one, extra Feat per level.
Thus, he or she could gain an extra Feat at levels 17, 18, 19, and 20.
Each would require the Wish spell, and the requisite 5,000 experience points would be expended, but I would not haggle over the wording of the Wish - I would simply allow this to be done.

I would allow this mage or magistress to throw one (and ONLY one) Wish for the purpose of giving a Feat to another character, per level.
Thus, the mage could give out 4 Feats. One at levels 17, 18, 19, and 20.
These 4 Feats could all be given to one character, or 1 Feat could be given to 4 characters, or anything in between.
Again, I would not haggle over the wording of the wish - I would simply let this happen.

However, any attempt to exceed this would be beyond the power of the Wish spell.
Any attempt beyond this would waste the Wish, and still cost the mage or magistress 5,000 experience points in the offing.

Under almost NO circumstances could a player use one of his characters to give another one of his characters Feats.
For me to allow that, I would require EXTRAORDINARY justification first (being family is not sufficient justification - saving the life of your stronger character with your weaker character, a very unlikely situation, might be enough justification.)

As for Epic Spells, yes, an Epic Spell could be developed that allowed one to take non-epic Feats.
This Epic Spell would be usable more often than a Wish - up to 2 Feats per level, or 2 Feats to other characters per level, up to a DC of 40. 3 Feats per level, or 3 Feats to other characters per level, up to a DC of 60. And so on.

An Epic Spell that allowed the character to gain Epic Feats would have a DC of 60 or higher, in all likelihood.
Such a spell would allow one Epic Feat per level, or one Epic Feat to another (Epic only) character per level.

That would be how I'd handle it, based on what I know of 3rd edition.
I might change what I'd do, given more experience and a better understanding of this edition of the game.

 

[Darkness]

Re: How I would handle Wishes and Feats

...

Under almost NO circumstances could a player use one of his characters to give another one of his characters Feats.
For me to allow that, I would require EXTRAORDINARY justification first (being family is not sufficient justification - saving the life of your stronger character with your weaker character, a very unlikely situation, might be enough justification.)

...

This being 3e, mere money might cut it...
If the lower-level character can shell out enough in cash and/or magical items (i.e., 1,530 gp for a 17th-level caster casting a 9th-level spell + 90 gp per level that the caster is above 17th, if any + 25,000 gp for the xp loss), and the higher-level character is mercenary enough, the lower-level character can just buy himself a feat.
Of course, this kind of monetary cost hurts quite a lot, given that this is more than half the total expected wealth of an average 10th-level character - and if the character's paying the caster in magic items, a few +1 battleaxes probably won't cut it and he'll have to shell out his best item instead...

edit - And you might even be able to get an NPC caster to do this for you for money.
But then, saving (or marrying, or whatever) an NPC would work, too...
Actually, NPCs might even be your best bet here in any case, since that won't require your higher-level character to shell out lots of xp for the weaker character - heck, you can do this even if you don't even have a powerful spellcaster character!

 

[doktorstick]

This is reminscent of the "a +1 BAB is greater than the power of a wish" argument. One of the tenets of this argument was that the only way you could permantently raise BAB was to level. Leveling is beyond the power of a wish and so it seems likely that BAB would be, too.

Feats, like BAB, can only be permanently raised by leveling. If you buy the first argument, then you probably would agree that feats are beyond the power of wish.

Items and spells do grant bonuses to BAB (e.g., tenser's transormation). Likewise, items (e.g., gloves of snaring) and spells (though I can't think of any right now) can grant feats.

I, for one, would not allow a feat to be wished. If I was somehow persuaded to allow feats for wishes, I definitely would not allow epic level feats to be wished.

/ds

 

[HEL Pit Fiend]

Technically, 5000XP is equal to 125,000gp, so that should get you somethin' pretty nice eqivalent to a similarly priced magic item.

DMG page 201: Scroll of 1 wish spell (5000xp in costs) = 28,825 gp.

 

[Rill]

A take of wish

The character may wish for greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous. Such a wish gives the opportunity to fulfill the character's request without fulfilling it completely. (The wish may pervert the character's intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment.)

The above suggests to me, that a viable solution to the wish for a feat, is to substitute the desired feat for one already obtained by the character. Thus the wish is fulfilled, although not completely.

A wish friendly DM may let the character specify which feat to lose. A swap of Run for Craft Wand might be requested as "I wish I had studied how to craft wands instead of running around the woods so much."

Possible restrictions could include preventing class granted feats from being swapped out, only allowing the character-level based feats to be replaced. Or refined, perhaps allow class bonus feats to be changed, but only for another feat on the bonus feat list.

One could also require that the character must have met the prerequisites of the desired feat at the level in which he gained the feat to be replaced. (ie, a wizard couldn't swap out his first level Toughness feat for Craft Ring, because at first level he couldn't have met the prerequisites for Craft Ring)

Less wish friendly DMs could choose to randomly determine the feat that is lost, or decide that it will always replace the first or last feat a character earned. Then a simple "I wish I could craft wands," might do.

Now, I would hope most DMs would be willing to at least explain the possible outcomes, allowing a player to make up their mind if it is worth the cost. Also be sure to explain that losing a feat that is a prerequisite for a class or another feat would prevent the character from using those abilities. (unless you are a very wish friendly DM)

Well, as all decisions, it would depend on the game, players, and the potential imbalance that it could cause. I know a few characters I have run would think the spell cost a small price to pay for the chance to refine their talents. Remember, new material is coming out all the time, and sometimes the new feats or classes provide a player with the tools more akin to their vision for their character. Providing an in game path to shaping this vision while maintaining game balance seems an admirable goal, and I wouldn't let official dogma or lack thereof, get in the way.

-Rill

 

[Junkheap]

But if it IS possible to wish for a feat, it surely must be possible to Miracle for a feat for the 5000 xp as well. They both DO NOT state that you can wish/miracle for a feat, but when everyone talks about miracle they always state that IT CAN'T because it doesn't say it can(eg Abiltiy raises). But everyone seems to ignore that very big point when talking about wish.

It either works both ways or it doesn't.

 

[Crothian]

But if it IS possible to wish for a feat, it surely must be possible to Miracle for a feat for the 5000 xp as well. They both DO NOT state that you can wish/miracle for a feat, but when everyone talks about miracle they always state that IT CAN'T because it doesn't say it can(eg Abiltiy raises). But everyone seems to ignore that very big point when talking about wish.

It either works both ways or it doesn't.

I agree. Wish just seems to be more common and more well known since it's been around since the early days of D&D.

 

[HEL Pit Fiend]

But if it IS possible to wish for a feat, it surely must be possible to Miracle for a feat for the 5000 xp as well. They both DO NOT state that you can wish/miracle for a feat, but when everyone talks about miracle they always state that IT CAN'T because it doesn't say it can(eg Abiltiy raises). But everyone seems to ignore that very big point when talking about wish.

It either works both ways or it doesn't.

DMG, page 203, Scroll of Miracle = 28,825 gp.

Hey, for 30 grand a pop (wish or miracle), I would have feats out my a$$ by 20th level.

 

[Crothian]

DMG, page 203, Scroll of Miracle = 28,825 gp.

Hey, for 30 grand a pop (wish or miracle), I would have feats out my a$$ by 20th level.

Even if my DM would allow me to pay for feats, I'm not sure what would be worth it. Feats are nice and everything, but a good wand of curing, or Item of +30 to a kill would be better use for the money.

 

[Junkheap]

DMG, page 203, Scroll of Miracle = 28,825 gp.

Hey, for 30 grand a pop (wish or miracle), I would have feats out my a$$ by 20th level.

I am not saying that you should be able to grant feats with either spells and yes the scrolls aren't cheap. But both spells work the same way in "whether to grant a feat or not debate".

I think the biggest reason why clerics aren't given enough feats is because they would be too powerfull otherwise. If they could miracle a feat it throws that balancing factor out the window. I can just see whirlwind attack clerics with holy vicious maces of disruptions going nuts. Not to mention the metamagic feats that SHOULD really be the area of the mages.

I wouldn'w allow it. I thought i would, and in a previous thread i thought i would as well, but i realize my mistake.

But it is kind of strange that you can buy items with feats. I think that is where wotc screwed up. I mean you can buy an item with a feat for not a lot of money compared to wish. Hell you could even wish for the item.