To the Official Folks: How will Wishes affect Feats?

[Edena_of_Neith]

A Harsh Reply to a Harsh Statement

Posted Above:

Given what you've told us about your character, EoN, you're not exactly the best authority on what's balanced and fair.

ANSWER:

This is very unfortunate.
I began an earnest and polite discussion on this matter of Wishes and Feats, and the above gets said to me.

Very well.

I will make answer to what was said.

I will state right now and here that I am an authority on what is right, and what is balanced, and what is fair.
If you care to challenge this, then I must ask:

Have you played for 25 years?
Have you DMed for 23 years?
Have you ran games where the players had so much fun they would not stop until the Convention closed?
Have you ran games where the players had so much fun they got mad at you for taking a call of nature, and thus depriving them of about 5 minutes of the action?
Have you sat (in the real life equivalent) at nearly every table in Knights of the Dinner Table?
Have you been in over a thousand sessions of roleplaying games?
Have you DMed over one hundred times?

Well now, if you have, you may criticize me as a Peer.
In which case, I will take your criticism into account, and it can be discussed.

However, a blanket statement like that, given without backup and credentials, has no credibility.

Upon just what credentials, experience, and understandings do you presume to make blanket statements concerning me or my characters?

- - -

I hate to be harsh, but statements like the above force my hand.

As for what is fair, or reasonable, or good for the game, concerning Wishes and Feats; apparently WOTC has decided not to decide this matter, and has left it instead to the players.

And I enjoy hearing what the players (the people on this board) have to say, and it is pleasant to discuss such things with them.

 

[fuindordm]

First of all, well said Edena!

(Re: a list of suggested wishes)

Some of them already are feats, or something reasonably close.

(Make a cross-class skill into a class skill)
a) Similar to the Cosmopolitan feat
(Make an exclusive skill into a class skill)
b) Not even possible with a feat, AFAIK
(Limited use of cantrips)
c) Magical Training feat...

Anyway, I'd answer 'no' to all of the above. I would consider 'yes' if it were only viable for a limited amount of time (not permanent).

I would have allowed all these choices. I think there's a fundamental difference of opinion here.

In one camp, we have those who see wishes as merely advanced magical technology--any wizard with at least a 14 Int can eventually learn to cast them, after all, so wishes are just one of the powers that the wizard/sorcerer class is assumed to have access to at high levels. From this perspective it is natural to place as many limits on it as possible.

In the other camp (myself included) are those who see wishes as legendary gifts of great power. If a player is expected to come across only one wish in their career, surely they should be allowed considerable leeway! Even given that an archmage can cast wishes with impunity, I would be inclined to allow any wish seems to me less valuable than 5000 xp, and some that are more powerful... with the wish exacting whatever additional price seems appropriate.

The main difference is this: are wishes under the DM's control or the player's control? If access to wishes is under the DM's control anyway, then the DM need not worry that interesting uses of the spell will be abused.

Even if they eventually come under the player's control, the DM could as I said exact an extra cost for the beefy wishes. If the players complain about the double standard, simply explain that the wish granted them by the Djinni Sultan was semi-divine and capable of a much wider array of effects than their own spells. Or simply introduce the concept of an "Epic Wish" which is entirely under your control and can grant boons that break the normal rules for that character.

Regarding the more specific examples, I again claim that all of these are well within the power of even a normal wish. A wish is supposed to be able to duplicate any arcane spell of lower level, right? Therefore it can duplicate the Permanency spell. Casting a Permanent Comprehend Languages on a player (for an extra 500xp, 7 spell levels total cast) seems eminently reasonable. Many, many feats are less powerful than a permanent first-level spell. What if the player wished to be a superb linguist, and the wish made Speak Language a class skill for them? It's hardly a gamebreaker.

So, to those of you who say "No, it's beyond the power of a wish", maybe you fear setting a precendent that can be abused? It's better, I think, to grant all balanced wishes to the player and exact a hefty price for those that seem unbalanced. When granting wishes, keep in mind:

a) That wishes generally use whatever means expends the least magical power.

b) Screwing with the wish usually requires more power than giving the character what they want.
This includes things like retroactively rearranging their class levels, transforming the character into something grossly different, or banishing the character to an alternate reality/distant time.

c) If a wish requires marginally more power than seems to be available to a 9th level spell, then exact an extra cost. Why not, after all--the wish nominally sucks away 5000 xp but there's no reason that it couldn't suck away a little more!

d) If a wish requires vastly more power than a 9th level spell, it's better for it to have a partial or temporary effect than to just have it fail. Nothing depresses a player more than having wasted a wish!

To my mind, wishing for a hammer of thunderbolts, for example, requires the wish to expend something like a souped-up Discern Location and teleport effect which is really pushing the envelope. If the Hammer is an attended item, it can't be teleported--so the playermight just be sent to it and its wielder. Or more likely they'll just receive a quite accurate vision of where to find the hammer.

If they wish for something more interesting, like the power of flight, then a permanent flight spell is borderline, but still would require less power than finding an appropriate magic item and giving it to them. Rather, hit them with a polymorph any object spell, which will have permanent duration anyway if the change is just to grant wings to the character. Why not transform them into a sparrow? Because this does more than what the character asked for, and because a more complete transformation would require more magic to be expended.

Of couse, the "Monkey's Paw" wish can be a fun plot device too... but that's a pretty cruel trick!

--Ben

 

[Vaxalon]

Re: A Harsh Reply to a Harsh Statement

Have you played for 25 years?
Have you DMed for 23 years?
Have you ran games where the players had so much fun they would not stop until the Convention closed?
Have you ran games where the players had so much fun they got mad at you for taking a call of nature, and thus depriving them of about 5 minutes of the action?
Have you sat (in the real life equivalent) at nearly every table in Knights of the Dinner Table?
Have you been in over a thousand sessions of roleplaying games?
Have you DMed over one hundred times?

Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes.

 

[Vaxalon]

In one camp, we have those who see wishes as merely advanced magical technology--any wizard with at least a 14 Int can eventually learn to cast them, after all, so wishes are just one of the powers that the wizard/sorcerer class is assumed to have access to at high levels. From this perspective it is natural to place as many limits on it as possible.

I don't see any evidence in the core rules to indicate that anything besides this is true.

 

[Arravis]

Edena_of_Neith wrote:
***I will state right now and here that I am an authority on what is right, and what is balanced, and what is fair.***

I would have to disagree whole-heartedly. The magic of role-playing games is that each group is individual and chooses what is right for their own needs. There is no solid right or wrong; such a notion is, simply put, foolish. It's a dynamic event that is constantly changing and in flux.

Additionally, experience does not give authority either. Just because someone does something for a long time, doesn't mean they are doing it right. I have met a great deal of people that have been doing a profession, hobby, etc abyssmally for many, many decades. It's unfortunately quite common. I am loathe to see the "I have 30 years experience, I know better" arguement. That bodes little weight with me. Sound reasoning, wise judgement and intelligent conversation on the other hand do hold weight.

I do not claim that you do or do not have any of those qualities, but consider your words wisely before you post them. Claiming to be the arbiter of all that is good and right in role-playing places a heavy mantle on your shoulders, by taking it on your claims will be tested. It's not something I would ever dream of claiming myself. I just try to DM a fun game for my handful of players, that's my only claim.

 

[Vaxalon]

Evaluating EoN's statements is easier when you've seen his character. I don't have the ability to search the archives, or I'd post a link.

It's very enlightening.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Additionally, experience does not give authority either. Just because someone does something for a long time, doesn't mean they are doing it right. I have met a great deal of people that have been doing a profession, hobby, etc abyssmally for many, many decades. It's unfortunately quite common. I am loathe to see the "I have 30 years experience, I know better" arguement. That bodes little weight with me. Sound reasoning, wise judgement and intelligent conversation on the other hand do hold weight.

You can say that again.

Particularly true in hobbies. A good fat chunk of the population assumes anything that is "artsy" or "fun" is easy. That is stuff for children, right? So obviously it is easy to become good at it for an adult. The "corollary" is that the time they've clocked is proof of how good they are.

 

[Umbran]

Re: A Harsh Reply to a Harsh Statement

I will state right now and here that I am an authority on what is right, and what is balanced, and what is fair.

Sorry, Edena, but I have to side here with Arravis. Experience can help, but a set of stated credentials don't make your opinion or methods above discussion, opinion, or criticism.

Vaxalon was a bit rude. Then dismiss him for rudeness. Your trumped up pedigree as a requirement for criticism is far more rude, and an inacurate measure of what it takes to have a valid opinion.

As Arravis noted, what is right, balanced, and fair varies rom group to group, from style to style. No one person is an authority on all. That was kind of the point of asking the question here in the first place, wasn't it?

 

[ruleslawyer]

Guys, please lay off the personal sniping. You know this isn't kosher within the context of these boards...

As for wishes and feats: I use a very simple system, as follows:

You may use a wish or miracle to gain a feat. Such a use of these spells is subject only to the following limitations:

1) You may only gain a feat for which you possess all that feat's prerequisites.
2) You may not wish for epic feats.
3) You may gain no more than three feats in this manner over your character's lifetime.

Thus, it is possible for a spellcaster to burn a total of 15,000 xp to gain a total of 3 feats, or for another character to gain 3 feats by paying a spellcaster to burn this xp. Yes, that leads to the possibility of a sorcerer with 3 extra metamagic feats, or a fighter with most of another feat chain. This really doesn't bother me at all, though, maybe because I love feats so much and it's fun to see my PCs using them.

 

[Vaxalon]

I think the basic problem here is that players see the long list of feats that are out there, and the list of all the ones they want is too long for them to get them all.

They're missing the point.

Feats are out there to help make your character unique. If you're trying to get all the "good ones" you're seeing it in the wrong light. Yes, you can't get all the good ones. That's the whole point. 3e is about tough choices and if you feel that you can't get everything you want, congratulations! You're playing 3e.