D&D 5E Toll the Chest

[Paul Farquhar]

This depends on the DM. I think if the description of the troll is adequate, it will be obvious that it's a creature.

Not if it's a lifelike statue or an illusion. And given that is a world where mimics exist, there is no "obviously". Anything might be a creature.

This is true in the real world too. From crabs that are indistinguishable from rocks, to viruses that bridge the gap between living and non-living, to AIs that can pass the Turing test on a good day you can't really say anything is "obviously" a creature.

The cleric is targeting it with a damage-dealing spell. It could certainly decide to stay still and hope it makes its save, but it would lose the element of surprise. That seems more like squandering an advantage to me.

Toll the Dead isn't targeted. Moving would serve no purpose. But if the mimic believes it has been sussed because people are casting spells at it, then it may certainly attack in self-defence. It doesn't get surprise though, the party are already attacking it.

The mimic might be surprised, if the party are stealthy.

 

[Hriston]

Not if it's a lifelike statue or an illusion. And given that is a world where mimics exist, there is no "obviously". Anything might be a creature.

This is true in the real world too. From crabs that are indistinguishable from rocks, to viruses that bridge the gap between living and non-living, to AIs that can pass the Turing test on a good day you can't really say anything is "obviously" a creature.

That would be hidden information which is exactly what I'm talking about. The party didn't notice a threat because all that was described was an object. Are you making the argument that every time the party encounters an object they are noticing a threat because the DM might be hiding the fact that it's really a creature?

Toll the Dead isn't targeted. Moving would serve no purpose. But if the mimic believes it has been sussed because people are casting spells at it, then it may certainly attack in self-defence. It doesn't get surprise though, the party are already attacking it.

Yes, toll the dead is a targeted spell, if I'm understanding how you're using that term. It targets a creature. That's actually why the cleric decided to cast the spell, because he wanted to see if the "chest" was really a creature, because he didn't know whether or not it was and wanted to use the spell to sort it out for him! The purpose of the mimic moving, thus spoiling its false appearance, would be to use the element of surprise in the cleric's moment of uncertainty to move and attack the party first, before the cleric's spellcasting is complete. The mimic sees the cleric is about to cast a spell and decides it's time to spring the trap. It certainly is self defense at that point, but it's also preemptive. The cleric's attack hasn't happened yet because combat is just beginning.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

That would be hidden information which is exactly what I'm talking about. The party didn't notice a threat because all that was described was an object. Are you making the argument that every time the party encounters an object they are noticing a threat because the DM might be hiding the fact that it's really a creature?

You are misinterpreting the meaning of "notice" in the phase. In the context it means "see". If the players can see something, they can be aware that it is a potential threat - because everything in a dungeon is, and hence not surprised by it. Situationally, the DM might rule that the PCs are unwary, and are surprised. This is the DMs call, which is why the section begins "The DM decides if the party is surprised". If the party are suspicious enough of something to investigate it with spells, pointy sticks or rolled up balls of paper, they are never going to be surprised by it. They are more likely to be surprised if it turns out to be a plain ordinary chest.

It targets a creature.

And XG clarified this: you can cast it on anything, it just does nothing if you cast it on something that is not a creature.

The purpose of the mimic moving, thus spoiling its false appearance, would be to use the element of surprise in the cleric's moment of uncertainty to move and attack the party first, before the cleric's spellcasting is complete. The mimic sees the cleric is about to cast a spell and decides it's time to spring the trap. It certainly is self defense at that point, but it's also preemptive. The cleric's attack hasn't happened yet because combat is just beginning.

If the mimic decides it wants to attack initiative is rolled. If the mimic rolls a higher initiative than the cleric it can attack them before they get the spell off. But the cleric is not surprised - they clearly believed the mimic was a threat or they wouldn't have been casting a spell on it in the first instance. If the mimic rolls lower than the cleric, it gets hit by the spell, then it can move.

That is assuming the cleric isn't hidden from the mimic, or using subtle spell (from the feat). Under those circumstances the mimic is surprised and doesn't get to act on the first round.

 

[Maxperson]

This depends on the DM. I think if the description of the troll is adequate, it will be obvious that it's a creature.

And every adventurer should see a chest as a threat. At the very least there's a good chance that of a trap being present and they have no idea what kind or where the trap will come from, so they will be as alert as if it were a creature.

The cleric is targeting it with a damage-dealing spell. It could certainly decide to stay still and hope it makes its save, but it would lose the element of surprise. That seems more like squandering an advantage to me.

Why would an intelligence 5 Mimic recognize a spell being cast? Most of them can't even speak common(and even those rare ones who do can only do simple conversations), let alone recognize a spell.

 

[Hriston]

You are misinterpreting the meaning of "notice" in the phase. In the context it means "see". If the players can see something, they can be aware that it is a potential threat - because everything in a dungeon is, and hence not surprised by it. Situationally, the DM might rule that the PCs are unwary, and are surprised. This is the DMs call, which is why the section begins "The DM decides if the party is surprised". If the party are suspicious enough of something to investigate it with spells, pointy sticks or rolled up balls of paper, they are never going to be surprised by it. They are more likely to be surprised if it turns out to be a plain ordinary chest.

No, you are misinterpreting the meaning of notice. In context, it has the ordinary, everyday, natural language meaning of "become aware of" found in most dictionaries. This is by sight, hearing, smell, or by any other means, but the important thing is that awareness must be gained thereby for you to have noticed anything. The threat, in this scenario, is a mimic. By seeing the "chest", did the party become aware of a mimic? No, not before it sprouted pseudopods and attacked them!

Look at the ranger's 10th-level ability, Hide in Plain Sight. It allows the ranger to try to hide by pressing themselves up against a solid surface while wearing camouflage. An observer can look right at the exact portion of the surface the ranger is pressing themselves up against and see the camouflage worn by the ranger that looks like part of the surface, but as long as the ranger doesn't move or take actions, and as long as the ranger's Stealth check is successful, the observer is totally unaware of and does not notice the ranger.

And XG clarified this: you can cast it on anything, it just does nothing if you cast it on something that is not a creature.

I'm not sure what your point is. I said the cleric was targeting the mimic. You said the spell isn't "targeted". I said it is because it targets a creature. Now you're saying it can target anything. So?

If the mimic decides it wants to attack initiative is rolled. If the mimic rolls a higher initiative than the cleric it can attack them before they get the spell off.

Initiative is being rolled in any case because the cleric's player decided the cleric wants to attack.

But the cleric is not surprised - they clearly believed the mimic was a threat or they wouldn't have been casting a spell on it in the first instance. If the mimic rolls lower than the cleric, it gets hit by the spell, then it can move.

Surprise has nothing to do with belief. It has to do with awareness, which is knowledge or perception of something, not belief. The cleric doesn't know there's a mimic. The cleric hasn't perceived the mimic. The cleric might believe there's a mimic in the room, but that's irrelevant for the purpose of determining surprise.

That is assuming the cleric isn't hidden from the mimic, or using subtle spell (from the feat). Under those circumstances the mimic is surprised and doesn't get to act on the first round.

Of course all kinds of circumstances that aren't part of the scenario described in the OP would change the outcome of the encounter.

 

[Hriston]

And every adventurer should see a chest as a threat. At the very least there's a good chance that of a trap being present and they have no idea what kind or where the trap will come from, so they will be as alert as if it were a creature.

Are you saying the party should never be surprised as long as the DM has described the presence of a chest?

Why would an intelligence 5 Mimic recognize a spell being cast? Most of them can't even speak common(and even those rare ones who do can only do simple conversations), let alone recognize a spell.

It recognizes the cleric's harmful intentions because spellcasters don't get to make free attacks out of initiative order. They have to wait for their turn like everyone else.

 

[Maxperson]

Are you saying the party should never be surprised as long as the DM has described the presence of a chest?

That depends on how the characters are acting. If they are suspicious of the chest and are ready, then surprise isn't possible.

It recognizes the cleric's harmful intentions because spellcasters don't get to make free attacks out of initiative order. They have to wait for their turn like everyone else.

That's poppycock. There's nothing in RAW that says creatures(especially ones dumber than a chimp) auto-recognize spells being cast.

 

[Hriston]

That depends on how the characters are acting. If they are suspicious of the chest and are ready, then surprise isn't possible.

That's poppycock! There's nothing in RAW that says surprise isn't possible if the characters act suspicious and ready.

That's poppycock. There's nothing in RAW that says creatures(especially ones dumber than a chimp) auto-recognize spells being cast.

That's true. Good thing I didn't say there was.

 

[Maxperson]

That's poppycock! There's nothing in RAW that says surprise isn't possible if the characters act suspicious and ready.

Of a threat hat they can see? That's RAW man. They can see the chest, so being suspicious makes it a threat that has been noticed.

That's true. Good thing I didn't say there was.

You did. You claimed that casting a hostile spell automatically made the mimic aware of the hostility(which isn't in the spell description) and it would attack. That's making it aware of the spell being cast. It has no ability to discern a spell over normal words(which can also be hostile).

 

[Paul Farquhar]

That depends on how the characters are acting.

For example, the party are studying a chest that they suspect to be a mimic. They have their backs to the table, which is the actual mimic, so when it attacks it has surprise.

No dice rolls are involved, the relevant rule is "The DM decides".