Tomb Robbing while Venerating the Dead

[Dr.Dan]

A serious question for the serious gamer:​

Lets say that you are a dwarf living in human lands and you’ve been charged by your local human noble with exploring a nearby ruin and returning with treasure to fill his coffers. (The lord will be giving you a portion of the spoils as compensation. His alternative source of revenue is higher taxes, which nobody wants.) Lets also assume that the ruins in question are of significant cultural value to you and your kind, and that they are generally considered to be a grave sight by your people. Your lord has been generous enough to decree that the expedition will be lead by dwarves, but if you refuse to go he’ll just send someone else. The ‘grave’ will be robbed one way or another.

Given that the expedition is going to take place regardless of your participation, you decide that it is best to accept the position of expedition leader and establish rules of conduct for your fellow explorers, so as not to totally despoil the sight while still fulfilling the wishes of your lord. The question is, what conduct is deemed unacceptable while tomb robbing? What ought to be allowed, and what ought to be taboo? The insight of serious gamers would be deeply appreciated here.

 

[nsruf]

Tough situation. In fact, I don't believe a traditional dwarf would put up with this at all. It's not lawful to violate a grave site for money (or any other reason, except possibly putting an undead threat to rest) - period.

So if I was the player of the dwarf in question, I would politely refuse, rally my clan, and take some of the "boys" to occupy the site and threaten to nail the head of any prospective grave robbers to a pole as an example to others.

Now if your dwarf is really pragmatic, I think he should still uphold some "minimum standard":

- leave the coffins and corpses alone, even if you believe there is something valuable inside
- leave the structure itself alone, even if it is made of valuable stuff
- take money and gems, but not weapons, armor, or works of art

And frankly, that doesn't sound as if the expedition would net a lot of cash.

Supposing the dwarf is really loyal to his lord, he should try to persuade him to do something else to raise money, and volunteer for the task.

 

[Tonguez]

And frankly, that doesn't sound as if the expedition would net a lot of cash.

Yep the only way that State sponsored tomb robbing is going to contribute anything significant to the royal treasurer is if said Tomb is that of some ancient Dwarf King, or a Dwarf Mine (ie City) in which Dwarfs were massacred and which the survivors abandoned ensuring that the the entrances were sealed.

In both these cases any attempt by an uppity Human to raid the site is going to bring down the Wrath of the entire Dwarf Nation and make the Dwarf traitor a pariah and target.
The adventure will quickly go from being one of Tombraiding to one of Stop/Join the Dwarf invasion - which also could be fun if you want to go there...

 

[Dirigible]

So if I was the player of the dwarf in question, I would politely refuse, rally my clan, and take some of the "boys" to occupy the site and threaten to nail the head of any prospective grave robbers to a pole as an example to others.

Yup. That's what mine'd do. Without knowing the details of dwarven psychology and culture in your setting, I'd have to say a dwarf who would choose to aid tombraiding rather than fighting against it has gone against his culture enough he wouldn't care what he broke or took once he was there.

Yep the only way that State sponsored tomb robbing is going to contribute anything significant to the royal treasurer is if said Tomb is that of some ancient Dwarf King, or a Dwarf Mine (ie City) in which Dwarfs were massacred and which the survivors abandoned ensuring that the the entrances were sealed.

Not necessarily. I think any dwarven settlement would be resplendent with gold, semi-prescious gems, beautifully worked stone objects, and high quality tools and similar items. An often overlooked fact of D&D economics is that, if it is anything like the real European middle ages, much trade will be dine though barter, and a large portion of the Lords's treasury will be in weapons, trade goods, spices, materials etc.

 

[Dagger75]

We have a rule of thumb for my game....

If its been buried for less then 100 years its Grave Robbing

Over 100 years its Archiology. Archiologists are just trying to preserve other cultures right. *nudge nudge*

But in all seriousness..

I don't think grave robbing would be looked kindly on the side getting robbed. If they went to all the trouble of building a tomb and crafting all the items to be placed in there they obviously have great respect for the dead. Dwarves in Forgotten Realms have deities whose protfolio is protecting the graves and tomb of dwarves.

Dwarves seem to have great respect for there ancstors and probably would have been greatly offended being asked to break into a tomb.

Plus how much money will one tomb give this lord. Enough for 1 year, whats he do the next year rob another tomb? The kingdom might as well have highway men and bandits pillaging the country side.

 

[Dr.Dan]

Respectful Tomb Raiding - Revised

Well, that didn't work the way I planned. You see, I tried to translate a very non-D&D game into D&D terms in order to simplify the question and expedite the answer. However by doing so, it appears that I've conveyed the wrong impression. Let me try this again.

The game in question is the LARP, Mythical Journeys, and the race is not dwarf, but is famori - a sort of half giantish people, noted for their wisdom and scholarly traditions. The ruins in question were once part of an arcane academy of higher learning which was destroyed in a magical cataclysm some 260 years ago. Many of the famori in town, while concerned for the sanctity of the place (it is considered a tomb in much the same sense that the Titanic is), are quite eager to explore it none the less. There is no clan to rally against the local lord, and no 'lawful' tendencies to the race in question.

The expedition is expected to return a good deal of treasure if it is successful. There is likely to be magical treasure found as well. The local baron has declared that at least one famori should accompany each expedition out of respect for our ancestors and to insure that nothing 'disrespectful' occurs, as the place and people within were once held in very high regard. The question remains, what is 'respectful' and what is 'disrespectful' in such a situation?

I apologies if my earlier entry was misleading. I hope this clarifies things. Your input is deeply appreciated.

 

[nsruf]

I apologies if my earlier entry was misleading. I hope this clarifies things. Your input is deeply appreciated.

No need to apologize, but using dwarves was a really bad analogy

I would still use similar guidelines as I gave for the "pragmatic dwarf":

- corpses/remains are treated with respect, not looted, and given a proper burial if possible
- don't tear the whole thing down, seal it again after you leave
- taking money, gems, and even works of art seems ok (more or less), but books, notes, etc. are not just to be sold off but should be recovered and made into a sort of "memorial library" out of respect for the scholarly tradition

 

[Voadam]

Well, that didn't work the way I planned. You see, I tried to translate a very non-D&D game into D&D terms in order to simplify the question and expedite the answer. However by doing so, it appears that I've conveyed the wrong impression. Let me try this again.

The game in question is the LARP, Mythical Journeys, and the race is not dwarf, but is famori - a sort of half giantish people, noted for their wisdom and scholarly traditions. The ruins in question were once part of an arcane academy of higher learning which was destroyed in a magical cataclysm some 260 years ago. Many of the famori in town, while concerned for the sanctity of the place (it is considered a tomb in much the same sense that the Titanic is), are quite eager to explore it none the less. There is no clan to rally against the local lord, and no 'lawful' tendencies to the race in question.

The expedition is expected to return a good deal of treasure if it is successful. There is likely to be magical treasure found as well. The local baron has declared that at least one famori should accompany each expedition out of respect for our ancestors and to insure that nothing 'disrespectful' occurs, as the place and people within were once held in very high regard. The question remains, what is 'respectful' and what is 'disrespectful' in such a situation?

I apologies if my earlier entry was misleading. I hope this clarifies things. Your input is deeply appreciated.

Ok the big thing is how they treat everything as they go in. Do not break apart bodies to get rings off of fingers, etc.

If you are the leader of the expedition you can make sure that everyone going understands it is a hallowed place to be treated with respect, so no joking around with old corpses, etc.

I think your right on with the idea to treat it as if you had the right to salvage the titanic and all the possessions of the deceased. Now go in with the idea that a member of your family was onboard when it went down. Treat it with that level of respect and ensure those who go in do so as well.

Would you as a Famori want to bring out the bodies for proper burial?

 

[BSF]

Talk the Lord into preserving almost everything as having "historical value". Sure, the Lord wants to raise funds, but he can then set it up as a museum, with an entrance fee. It doesn't raise a lot of money initially, but it provides a constant source of income over time.

Of course, there will be items that are so valuable that nobody will want to let them sit in a museum, but that is part of the negotiation process.

 

[Verdigris]

I know that people overuse Holocaust analogies all the time, but there is one that may apply here.

There were Jews in Eastern European ghettos who were enlisted by the Nazis to help police and manage the Jewish populations of such places. In some cases, these individuals were criminals or had bad motives. In many cases, however, the members of these organizations (called Judenrat) felt that by assisting the Nazis they could save Jews rougher treatment at the hands of the Germans or their auxilliaries. There invariably appeared a grey area between assisting the Nazis to commit their crimes, and helping Jews get along in the horrible conditions in which they found themselves. I bring this up not to argue about what is invariably a controversial topic (i.e. it is full of heroes and villains on all sides), but because the morality of such involvement is extremely complicated.

It seems like your Dwarf is in a similarly murky quandry. If he participates in robbing the tombs, he is complicit in the crime. If he refuses, he will at best be ostricized by his lord. At worst he will be killed himself. If he renounces his lord and fights against subsequent robbers, ditto. If he does nothing, he may be responsible for the future looting of the tomb.

I suggest your Dwarf propose the following. What if he offers to bring back riches for his lord under the stipulation that the Lord protect the graves from looting forevermore? Such protection would invariably require an expedition or two for cataloging purposes and maybe there are riches in there which do not specifically belong to the Dwarven dead (maybe they were looted themselves from even older temples...)

Metagaming for a moment...this solution hopefully doesn't ruin a very well designed "hook" (one that has wrenching options for the PC and requires actual role-playing to resolve)

Alternately, the Dwarf may be able to separate objects that are of personal value to the dead Dwarves from the cultural or decorative objects that might exist in the tomb. If such a distinction can be made, then maybe society will benefit from having these objects above ground, for study and celebration of the grandeur of ancient dwarven society.