Tome of Battle - Are they serious?

[Schmoe]

As the OP, I frankly don't care if the maneuvers have a "mystical" or a "magical" or a "mundane" or a "half-pregnant" feel to them. I just want my single-classed fighters to have the flexibility to take advantage of the maneuvers. From what others have said, it sounds like there will at least be some option to allow a non-"initiator" to use the maneuvers, so that makes me happy.

At any rate, mmu1 you have a good point about combining this particular feat (Evasive Reflexes) with others. It definitely has potential to reduce the use of tactical options, and the way it interacts with other feats could be very confusing. I see many "Ask the Sage" questions in its future...

 

[Felix]

if they're being done by someone without the "Improved" feat

Which means they won't be avoiding the trips, disarms, grapples of folks who have decided to put the minimum effort into being good at those things. How often do characters who don't have the Improved feats regularly try to do those things? PCs, rarely I would think, as PCs are loathe to incur AoO's. Named NPCs too, since they usually act very similarly to PCs (in terms of character optimization). And Mooks don't matter: they're there to be killed anyway.

Meanwhile, the character with Evasive Relfexes has decided not to choose a feat that makes their own style of attacking more powerful. In my experience, it's more common to see PCs use their feats for offense rather than defense. In that regard, I don't think a defensive feat like this one is a bad option to provide.

 

[Hussar]

I agree with Felix. I can see this feat getting a whole lot more loving from DM's than from players. Not too many players are willing to give up an offensive bump for a defensive bump that relies on the enemy doing something fairly stupid, like draw an aoo. Given the choice between this and combat reflexes, I'm pretty sure which way my players would go.

One very sweet application of this is with a reach weapon and someone charging. If you don't have your weapon set, simply sidestep at 90 degrees. You just might completely step out of the way of a charge. Not a bad thing at all.

Ooo, this would be a very sweet feat for bad guys. Good guy runs up, draws the aoo, misses the charge due to the sidestep. Same with good guy number two as well. Bad guy moves in and rains down on good guy. I like it.

 

[Kobold Avenger]

I'm pretty sure that some of the manuevers will be supernatural, and a lot of them will be extraordinary abilities.

It also wouldn't surprise me if the feat that allows a non-swordsage, non-warblade, non-crusader to learn a manuever could be taken as a bonus fighter feat.

 

[Hussar]

I'm not really sure why there's even a beef. I mean, come on, a monk can suck up a fireball with spell resistance and that's considered extraordinary. That's splitting the hair a trifle fine methinks.

 

[SteveC]

I'm glad you agree, otherwise I'd have to explain that we're talking about mutually-exclusive conditions. On or off. Human and superhuman. Magical and non-magical. It's not possible to be both, and in the latter case you can't be neither. Pick one side of the fence and own up to it.

Um, what???

You have a system where some maneuvers are things that a character could do only with mundane means, and others they can't. Your sensei tells you that running faster or dodging better than you ever could before is only the beginning of what the style can teach you. Once you master them you will be ready to master the secret techniques that require supernatural insight, insight that you will have gained by pushing your body to it's limits in learning the ealier techniques. What's the problem?

In D&D casting spells is an ability that anyone with the appropriate ability score can be taught how to do. The description for how characters learn their abilities in the Tome of Battle is only flavor text for the same process applied in a martial setting. Many classes have both Ex and Su abilities, so color me a little confused as to the problems you're having...

--Steve

 

[buzz]

One very sweet application of this is with a reach weapon and someone charging. If you don't have your weapon set, simply sidestep at 90 degrees. You just might completely step out of the way of a charge.

I don't believe that stepping 5' to the side will let a PC avoid a charge. The charger doesn't have to attack the square directly in front of him; he can attack into any square he threatens.

 

[Felon]

In D&D casting spells is an ability that anyone with the appropriate ability score can be taught how to do. The description for how characters learn their abilities in the Tome of Battle is only flavor text for the same process applied in a martial setting. Many classes have both Ex and Su abilities, so color me a little confused as to the problems you're having...

You must not have read my posts very closely. I don't care if the abilities are magical or not. That hasn't been my point. My point was that they're presented as being nonmagical battle techniques (i.e. extraordinary abilities), when some of them--like summoning an elemental--clearly are. If Tome of Battle is a book for building warrior-mages, then that's fine. They just ought to come out and say so (sound familiar?).

 

[Felix]

I don't believe that stepping 5' to the side will let a PC avoid a charge.

It's possible, though it has to be done with a particular geometry.

First, you must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent.

So, if Charger moves to attack from the upper right corner...

xxC
xTx

And the Target takes a 5' step up to the left...

TxC
xxx

Then the Charger is S.O.L. Acutally, you don't need a feat to do this, as you can already accomplish it with a Ready Action (when attacked, attack and move 5'). Sure, you use a ready action instead of some other action, but if you don't want to be the first to engage in melee, this is a viable tactic.

 

[Alzrius]

Another step closer to Dungeons & Dragonballs.

Nah, we're not that lucky.