Tome of Battle: Book of 9 Swords - Things to watch out for?

[AllisterH]

p. 43 "You can make a critical hit with a strike, and in a few cases, a critical hit grants you additional benefits. You do not multiply extra damage from a strike with a successful critical hit. You treat it just as you would extra damage from another special ability, such as sneak attack."

I see no distinction here between bonus damage points or bonus damage dice. It seems to indicate that neither is multiplied on a critical hit. Has this been erratta'd?

No. But the question is, "Is the damage from Insightful Strike a bonus?". I say no since, bonus implies EXTRA, but there is no base damage to assign a bonus TO with that particular strike.

For other manoeuvers which just add +xd6 or +x points of damage, this is obvious, but Insightful Strike? Strike of perfect clarity though? That explicitly mentions it is a bonus so I think there should be no multiplier effect.

That said, in the D&D system, bonus non-die damage _IS_ multiplied on a critical. Bonus damage DIE aren't and that's where the problem comes.

 

[glass]

p. 43 "You can make a critical hit with a strike, and in a few cases, a critical hit grants you additional benefits. You do not multiply extra damage from a strike with a successful critical hit. You treat it just as you would extra damage from another special ability, such as sneak attack."

I see no distinction here between bonus damage points or bonus damage dice. It seems to indicate that neither is multiplied on a critical hit. Has this been erratta'd?

Look at the line after the one you bolded (I've moved the bold tags to highlight it). It says treat it extra damage from any other special ability; ie multiply adds but not dice.

IOW, it's clear as mud.


glass.

 

[Nifft]

My reading of Insightful Strike is that it is NOT multiplied on a critical.

I'm not sure the concept of critical even makes sense... If weapon damage, magical properties, and feats don't apply, what's your critical threat range? Where could you derive what happens on a crit?

CHeers, -- N

 

[AllisterH]

My reading of Insightful Strike is that it is NOT multiplied on a critical.

I'm not sure the concept of critical even makes sense... If weapon damage, magical properties, and feats don't apply, what's your critical threat range? Where could you derive what happens on a crit?

CHeers, -- N

Er, but Insightful Strike still requires an attack role with your weapon. It just replaces the damage normally done with your weapon with the damage from the concentration check.

 

[Nifft]

Er, but Insightful Strike still requires an attack role with your weapon. It just replaces the damage normally done with your weapon with the damage from the concentration check.

That's not what it says.

"As part of this maneuver, make a melee attack. If this attack hits, you do not deal normal damage. Instead, you make a Concentration check and deal damage equal to the result. Your Strength modifier, your weapon's magical properties (if any), and any other extra damage you normally deal do not modify this check (including extra damage from class abilities, feats, or spells)."

That's clearly not just replacing weapon damage.

I'd lump critical hits in with "any other extra damage you normally deal".

Cheers, -- N

 

[Plane Sailing]

If you have issues w/the flavor/mechanics... Why are you on the rules forum? Isn't there a house-rule forum that would love to hear your ideas?

In my experience, it seems there are fewer people saying "I have a few issues..." and more people saying "Warblade is broken! All PHB melee classes are obsolete!" And in my opinion, those people are wrong. And yes, I'll argue that they're wrong... I think people who come here looking for information need both sides of the story.

I play a warblade (diamond mind/white raven) in a party with a paladin and a barbarian/fighter... The barbarian consistently out damages me, has more Hp, and damage reduction. The paladin will out damage me on a smite, and can also heal people and do paladin-y things.

Anyway... If you like your restrictions and fixes... Great. Enjoy your game however you feel best about it. I'm just of the opinion that people should try it out as written first, with as few changes as possible. Then if it's necessary, they can change whatever they feel needs it. And then discuss it in house rules, instead of trying to tell people that the classes only work if you do X.

I've only just seen this post from yesterday, but I need to respond to it.

castro3nw, I can see that you've joined ENworld relatively recently. Please check the rules of conduct, and especially conduct related to this forum.

In case it is necessary I'll spell out for you that 'suggesting' that people go to the house rules forum is not on. Don't do it again. The Rules forum is for all kinds of discussion about how Rules are implemented.

 

[Particle_Man]

So let me see if I got this straight:

a) For strikes that simply add dice to damage rolls, there is agreement that the added dice do not multiply with a critical hit.

b) For strikes that add points of damage (up to +100 points for the 9th level Iron Heart Maneuver), we do not have agreement between the two possibilities of whether or not the added points of damage multiply with a critical hit.

c) For strikes that replace normal damage (such as some of the Diamond Mind Strikes), there are three possibilities, over which there is disagreement. It could be that this damage is not multiplied on a critical hit. It could also be that the damage is multiplied on a critical hit, using the critical "stats" of the weapon used to administer the strike (x3, 19-20/x2, etc.). Finally, it could be that the damage is multiplied on a critical hit, using "default" critical stats of "x2" and "natural 20 only" as is used for spells and the like.

Is that a correct way of laying out the various disagreements on multiplying damage from strikes on a critical hit?

 

[Nifft]

So let me see if I got this straight:

a) For strikes that simply add dice to damage rolls, there is agreement that the added dice do not multiply with a critical hit.

b) For strikes that add points of damage (up to +100 points for the 9th level Iron Heart Maneuver), we do not have agreement between the two possibilities of whether or not the added points of damage multiply with a critical hit.

c) For strikes that replace normal damage (such as some of the Diamond Mind Strikes), there are three possibilities, over which there is disagreement. It could be that this damage is not multiplied on a critical hit. It could also be that the damage is multiplied on a critical hit, using the critical "stats" of the weapon used to administer the strike (x3, 19-20/x2, etc.). Finally, it could be that the damage is multiplied on a critical hit, using "default" critical stats of "x2" and "natural 20 only" as is used for spells and the like.

Is that a correct way of laying out the various disagreements on multiplying damage from strikes on a critical hit?

This is the first time I've heard disagreement (c).

Disagreement (b) was discussed long ago -- there are some Strikes which explicitly state how they interact with critical hits, and the rest I think we agreed did not. That's what I took away from the conversation anyway. Page 43 seems pretty explicit.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Zurai]

Wow, I could have sworn that the book made a distinction between bonus damage and bonus dice.

Mea culpa. I apologize for my own misunderstanding.

 

[Nifft]

Mea culpa. I apologize for my own misunderstanding.

Hey! We don't tolerate that kind of language here in the Rules Forum, buddy!

Cheers, -- N

PS: It's kinda odd that bonus damage from Strikes is called out explicitly, while bonus damage from Stances and Boosts is not... but oh well.