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Tome of Battle: Book of 9 Swords - Things to watch out for?

Nifft said:
And this last bit is the bit that I just don't get.

A raging, Power Attacking, full-attack Barbarian will out-damage any Martial Adept.
Erb? Level 3 barbarian, level 3 warblade. Both with the same stats and a two-handed sword. The warblade will be doing an extra +7 damage every other round (and ignoring DR) the barbarian will be doing +7 damage every round (assume 2 points into power attack from rage STR) , but won't ignore DR and has a lower AC and +6 hit points. So the barbarian is probably better (it's a tie against DR 5). But only for one fight a day, only for a limited (though usually sufficient) time and he already burned a feat to be able to do it.

A warblade, which is probably the worst of the Bo9S classes, can consistently out damage a barbarian for all but one fight per day at 3rd to 5th level. It isn't really even close IME.

Mark
 

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Zurai said:
Brehobit: That's why Nifft said "A raging, Power Attacking, full-attack Barbarian". Emphasis mine.

At 3rd level...full attack = 1 attack. The point about the martial adepts at low levels has been emphasized, they are a lot stronger (and to some people's minds overpowered) below 6th level.
 

Stalker0 said:
At 3rd level...full attack = 1 attack. The point about the martial adepts at low levels has been emphasized, they are a lot stronger (and to some people's minds overpowered) below 6th level.

Barbarians don't make Full Attack actions below 6th level, unless they have natural weapons (warforged, for example) or are TWF, neither of which are really relevant to the discussion. I'm sure if you ask Nifft, he'll confirm that he was meaning Full Attacks that actually, you know, do damage. And he's right - only at levels 3 and 5 do Power Attacking Warblades outdamage Power Attacking Barbarians.
 

Well, in any case I think wizards, clerics, and druids, even using just core rules only for them, can still outperform Bo9S characters and kick their butts. The martial adepts just get the advantage of being tougher without needing spells to do so, and can do their tricks in more battles per day, but can only use each trick just once per battle (or once per few rounds if they waste a round just recovering maneuvers).

Spellcasters can use the same powerful attacks for multiple rounds in a row, but can't keep it up all day long, while a martial adept can only use strong attacks once every few rounds at best if they waste some time (or once per battle if they can't afford to waste any time in the heat of battle, which will probably only come up once in a while), but can do it in every single battle of the day.

I'll make a high-level example first, then I'll see if I can make a similarly effective lower-level combo later.

[sblock=example]Halfling transmuter wizard 17, Dex 30 (base 18, +2 racial, +6 gloves, +4 inherant from a manual), Int 30 (base 18, +6 circlet, +4 from levels, +2 inherant from a tome); possible with 32 point buy, more likely with a higher point buy or just good rolls
Feats: Scribe Scroll, Improved Initiative, Spell Focus (Enchantment), Greater Spell Focus (Enchantment), Spell Focus (Conjuration), Augment Summoning, Spell Penetration, Heighten Spell, Quicken Spell, Craft Rod
Relevant Possessions: Greater Metamagic Rod of Quicken Spell, Normal Metamagic Rod of Quicken Spell, Gloves of Dexterity +6, Circlet of Intelligence +6
Spell Slots: 4+1/7+1/7+1/6+1/6+1/6+1/6+1/4+1/3+1/2+1

Halfling transmuter and random 17th-level martial adept encounter each other on the road, recognizing one another as mortal enemies for whatever reason. Halfling wins initiative easily; the martial adept has had to split his/her best ability score rolls and bonuses amongst at least three scores while putting at least decent boosts into one or two other scores, and is unlikely to have anything comparable in Dexterity, especially given their minimal ranged attack capabilities.

The halfling opens up with a Quickened Hold Person, using the Normal Metamagic Rod, and Heightened to 6th-level, for a total Will save DC of 28. Martial adept is flat-footed since they lost Initiative, and can't use Moment of Perfect Mind in that state. Martial adept probably fails the Will save, unless they're a Swordsage, in which case they have a decent chance of success. Halfling follows up with a Time Stop, rolling average for 3 rounds of effective free time.

1st round of Time Stop, the halfling uses a Quickened Teleport on himself, using the Normal Metamagic Rod, to arrive somewhere mostly concealed and behind the martial adept. Then he casts Summon Monster VIII to get critters from the SM6 list, with an average result of 3. He summons 3 Gargantuan Fiendish Monstrous Centipedes, surrounding the martial adept with 2 of them flanking.

2nd round of Time Stop, the halfling uses a Quickened Invisibility on himself, using a 6th-level slot. Then he casts SM8 again but for only 1 creature, a Gargantuan Fiendish Monstrous Spider, to flank with the 3rd Centipede.

3rd round of Time Stop, the halfling casts a Summon Monster VI, quickened by the Normal Metamagic Rod, to summon a Janni flying above the martial adept. At this point the only direction the martial adept isn't surrounded is underneath; the gargantuan flankers are plenty tall enough to block him leaving any other way except straight up, where the Janni is hovering to block him.

Time Stop ends. The halfling calls out a command to have his minions deliver a coup de grace and smiting. Martial adept suffers 5 automatic critical hits as the summoned critters act immediately after their summoner's initiative, executing a coup de grace upon the martial adept that is currently under Hold Person.

Each except for the Janni will most likely, given their average damage with their Smite Good (assuming the martial adept is good-aligned; if a different alignment then the halfling has to summon different stuff for the same degree of effectiveness; if he doesn't know he can just hope that the damage is enough without successful Smites), will provoke not only a Fortitude save against the coup de grace attempt, but also additional Fortitude saves against massive damage.

Most likely one of those DC 20-50-something saves (20-odd for the Janni, 50-60-odd for the bigger summons) is going to fail and you wind up with 1 very dead martial adept. And the halfling can repeat this one or two more times per day at least, though using up his metamagic rods after the second time, resorting to some slightly-lower-level Summons after the first barrage and no Quickened Fly/Teleport/Invisibility-type stuff.

Even if the martial adept survives by some miracle, he's going to have difficulty getting out of that jam, and if even just one of those gargantuan critters survives the round, it will be commanded to grapple him next and thereby neutralize most of his best attacks, while the halfling makes attempts to Disintegrate him, Scorching Ray and Quickened Scorching Ray him (the halfling has great chances of hitting with the ranged touch attacks), or summon more Huge or Gargantuan beasties to grapple and maul the martial adept. And that's assuming the Hold Person didn't stick. In which case he'll probably start off by attempting another Quickened Hold Person followed by a normal Hold Person if necessary, until the martial adept has expended its few emergency-butt-saving maneuvers.

Even if the halfling loses Initiative from very poor rolling, his likely Contingency will transport him a safe distance away before he comes to any harm, so he can ready a separate (probably invisible, and probably including an initial Dispel or Greater Dispel on the martial adept, to suppress any True Seeing items or the like) ambush.[/sblock]
 

Zurai said:
Brehobit: That's why Nifft said "A raging, Power Attacking, full-attack Barbarian". Emphasis mine.
At level 3-5 does it really help in some way I'm missing? My example was at level 3 for a reason.

Edit: Stalker0 beat me

Mark
 

In-game experience. Personally I love the Bo9S, mostly for making the fighters interesting in-combat to play with. Some observations.

1. The classes are all MAD. The fact is, if you build a barbarian with 32 pt versus a barbarian with 28 pt, in-game, I don't think you'll notice much of a difference. The same can be said for a fighter built with 25 pts versus 28 pts. For the martial adepts, this can be HUGE. The higher the pt total, the more powerful the character not only at 1st level but further down the road. The crusader is maybe the only one that you can get away with focusing on two stats a la a paladin that ignores CHA but like such a character, the character will be much weaker. Thus, I don't see barbarians with the same stats as a warblade or a fighter either (now a monk and a swordsage will have the same stats and a crusader and a paladin will have the same stats).

2. Existing fighters since 1E AD&D could not do it alone at high levels. The number of creatures that fly at high levels has remained consistent and the fact that at high levels you NEEDED a magic weapon has remained consistent. Even in 1E, with those dragons with those low HP total. If you simply let them land on the ground and attack, sure the fighter would rock but even back then, the DM was using a variant of Flyby attack (in his words, "Why the hell would a dragon with super intelligence give up such a tactical advantage?").

3. The sweet spot for martial adepts is the levels 3-5 since they get more powerful manoeuvers but the normal melee classes don't get an iterative attack. Note also this is the same sweet spot for warlocks when they really shine better than fighters and also ironically, the best spot for reserve feats. This is more a quirk of the system itself.

4. Don't the regular fighters already feel small in the pants when a druid showed up? At levels 1-5, the animal companion is almost as tough as the FTR, their SNA are physically tougher than the SM equivalents and when a FTR is finally a better at his job, the druid gets shapechange and can easily outgrapple the FTR. Really, if there is a druid in the party, all of the melee classes should already be overshadowed IMO.

5. Single School martial adepts.
Seems kind of unneccessary IMO. Only the swordsage can really afford to get into more than 2 schools (which as the blade wizard is a flavour thing AND the fact they get medium BAB and a D8 HD as a balance thing) as a warblade and crusader are hard pressed to focus on more than 2. You want the higher level manoeuvers but since you need lower level pre-requisites, you can't simply at 15th level, just have the best of each school if you're a warblade.
 

brehobit said:
Erb? Level 3 barbarian, level 3 warblade. Both with the same stats and a two-handed sword. The warblade will be doing an extra +7 damage every other round (and ignoring DR) the barbarian will be doing +7 damage every round (assume 2 points into power attack from rage STR) , but won't ignore DR and has a lower AC and +6 hit points. So the barbarian is probably better (it's a tie against DR 5). But only for one fight a day, only for a limited (though usually sufficient) time and he already burned a feat to be able to do it.

A warblade, which is probably the worst of the Bo9S classes, can consistently out damage a barbarian for all but one fight per day at 3rd to 5th level. It isn't really even close IME.

Mark

Y'know, DR doesn't tend to come up much at 3rd-level. And when it does, it's very very bad for you normally. And any DR-bypassing the martial adept can do at that point can be done by barbarians too, by using Silversheen or asking the party mage for a Magic Weapon on his greatsword. If the group is facing a critter at 3rd-level that has DR, they're either slightly better off with the martial adept, or they're probably screwed (at least one or two party members).

Because the martial adept will just be ignoring the DR every other round at best, but if the party has the resources to bypass it anyway, then the martial adept's Mountain Hammer maneuver is not really helping much, though it may save them 1 vial of Silversheen, or 1 casting of Magic Weapon.

Assuming he's fine with suffering the DR every other round and being less effective on those rounds, when the barbarian could be effective every round with the use of MW or SS. Y'know, assuming there's no rush to kill the Shadow that's very quickly killing the party Wizard or Rogue with Strength Drain.

There isn't much they'd be facing at 3rd-level that would have Damage Reduction, so it's likely to slaughter them (or at least 1-2 PCs, and Raise Dead isn't available to most 3rd-level parties in any form) if they don't already have a means of bypassing it; the martial adept just has a chance of beating it without those particular resources on-hand, if he has Mountain Hammer known and readied (likely).

He still has less chance of victory than if the rest of the party already had those DR-bypassing resources themselves, in order to magic-up and silver-up his greatsword to use at full effectiveness every single round against the monster.

Point being that the DR-bypassing schtick of Mountain Hammer isn't so important at the lower levels where it's first obtained (which is still later than a spellcaster gains such capability).
 

brehobit said:
At level 3-5 does it really help in some way I'm missing? My example was at level 3 for a reason.

Mark

Yes. The reason being to completely bypass the entire meaning of what Nifft posted, obviously. Nifft was talking about Full Attacking barbarians. You were talking about Standard Action Attacking barbarians. They aren't the same. Thus why I pointed out that Nifft was talking about Full Attacking barbarians.
 


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