Tome of Battle: Book of 9 Swords - Things to watch out for?

[Vorput]

5. Single School martial adepts.
Seems kind of unneccessary IMO. Only the swordsage can really afford to get into more than 2 schools (which as the blade wizard is a flavour thing AND the fact they get medium BAB and a D8 HD as a balance thing) as a warblade and crusader are hard pressed to focus on more than 2. You want the higher level manoeuvers but since you need lower level pre-requisites, you can't simply at 15th level, just have the best of each school if you're a warblade.

If this has been mentioned before in the thread, I'm sorry I missed it- but that's actually a very good point. When I did overviews of the maneuvers, i wasn't paying close attention to the prerequisites...

 

[Vorput]

Skeletons and zombies are about it - and they have easy-to-bypass DR.

Gricks... I've had an almost TPK because of a Grick, and their crazy damage reduction, once.

 

[Prophet2b]

I disgaree, Legalos/Aragon synergize pretty well with 14th-15th level characters IMHO.

Movie or book versions? There's a difference... I'd agree with movie Legolas/Aragorn.

As has probably been mentioned above, I have no problem with Bo9S classes doing warriorish stuff (like their extraordinary abilities), I do have a problem with replacing the fighter/monk with someone who shoots fireballs from their hands :-/

I thought about this... and I do kind of understand it... but I also wonder - why? Is it because it's stepping on the toes of spellcasters? Because spellcasters step on the toes of fighters all the time. Clerics and druids most notably.

I don't really see the difference.

 

[Someone]

Your understanding is incorrect. Bonus damage - Strike of Perfect Clarity, for example - is indeed multiplied, just like bonus damage from strength, weapon enhancement bonuses, and Weapon Specialization is. Bonus damage dice - most other strikes - are not multiplied, just as sneak attack dice and flaming weapon dice are not multiplied.

Actually the book states that "you do not multiply extra damage from a strike with a succesful critical hit", and doesn't make a distinction between plain bonus damage or bonus dice.

 

[Nifft]

At level 3-5 does it really help in some way I'm missing? My example was at level 3 for a reason.

Hello!

Yeah, I was focusing more on the mid game (level 6+) than the low game.

The Warblade can indeed out-damage a Barbarian for a single round at levels 3 and 5, because the initiator just got a new level of maneuvers, and the Barbarian hasn't gotten his goody yet. (This is similar to how a Wizard owns a Sorcerer at most odd levels.)

There's an interesting discussion (and spreadsheet) here which lays out a comparison for levels 1 through 7: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=12990532#post12990532

Interestingly, the maneuvers he chose do NOT include any from Stone Dragon, and I think I can explain why: you're assuming that the attack roll can't be optimized. The Barbarian certainly can choose to Power Attack for 2 in a way that emulates +2d6 damage, but that's not guaranteed to be the optimal strategy -- in fact, it's usually not optimal.

Try multiplying the expected damage numbers you have against your probability to hit various ACs. I think you'll agree that the +2 to attack that the Barbarian gains from Rage is actually worth quite a lot! More than a fixed +4 damage.

- - -

However, I disagree that a Warblade can always recover every other round. He can't recover on the round after he's used a Counter, he can't recover and Charge in the same round, nor can he recover and double move.

- - -

Anyway. I'll concede that a Core-only Barbarian loses to a Warblade at levels 3 and 5 (10% of a regulation career).

Cheers, -- N

PS: For DR, don't forget Fey and little Outsiders! Lantern Archons, Nixies & Grigs, Imps, Quasits.

 

[Arkhandus]

I thought about this... and I do kind of understand it... but I also wonder - why? Is it because it's stepping on the toes of spellcasters? Because spellcasters step on the toes of fighters all the time. Clerics and druids most notably.

I don't really see the difference.

He means from a thematic standpoint. It's very non-Medieval/Renaissance-European in style. Cuz y'know, nerdy scholars, surly tree-huggers, pagan warrior-priests, and preachy death-dealing knights, who wear as much magic as medieval aristocrats wore perfume and throw around as much wierd mojo as monkeys fling poo, are really very common and ordinary in medieval Europe. :\


(no insult intended, but it's a really ironic viewpoint y'know...?)

 

[WhatGravitas]

He still has less chance of victory than if the rest of the party already had those DR-bypassing resources themselves, in order to magic-up and silver-up his greatsword to use at full effectiveness every single round against the monster.

Not only that, but wasn't there a complaint about the "Magic Weapon Golfbag", because in 3.5, DR is so varied, that a good melee character has to carry around a bag full of different weapons to overcome the various DRs?

ToB seems to solve that problem... one of the reason, besides being a fun system, why I like the ToB: It reduces the magic item dependacy of melee characters, opening up the way to get more interesting items, that have a more creative use than +X or overcomes DR X/Y.

 

[Particle_Man]

Your understanding is incorrect. Bonus damage - Strike of Perfect Clarity, for example - is indeed multiplied, just like bonus damage from strength, weapon enhancement bonuses, and Weapon Specialization is. Bonus damage dice - most other strikes - are not multiplied, just as sneak attack dice and flaming weapon dice are not multiplied.

p. 43 "You can make a critical hit with a strike, and in a few cases, a critical hit grants you additional benefits. You do not multiply extra damage from a strike with a successful critical hit. You treat it just as you would extra damage from another special ability, such as sneak attack."

I see no distinction here between bonus damage points or bonus damage dice. It seems to indicate that neither is multiplied on a critical hit. Has this been erratta'd?

 

[glass]

The OP asked for specific things to watch out for, and the way this book messes with the flavor of your typical D&D world is one of them.

IMO, the flavour of the typical D&D world is 'everything, including the kitchen sink'. That is pretty hard to mess up.


glass.

 

[Fedifensor]

p. 43 "You can make a critical hit with a strike, and in a few cases, a critical hit grants you additional benefits. You do not multiply extra damage from a strike with a successful critical hit. You treat it just as you would extra damage from another special ability, such as sneak attack."

I see no distinction here between bonus damage points or bonus damage dice. It seems to indicate that neither is multiplied on a critical hit. Has this been erratta'd?

My understanding is that you are correct. Which leads to my earlier question - how much damage does a 30-point Insightful Strike do on a critical hit? Because Insightful Strike replaces normal weapon damage, rather than becoming extra damage.