Tome of Battle: Book of 9 Swords - Things to watch out for?

[Rystil Arden]

Yes, same hit die. Warblade has an interest in having an intelligence score though, so losing out on some of my point buy that could have gone into con.

With the right maneuvers a warblade can gain DR/adamantine for a round here/there, but DR/- is alot tougher to get through. Those maneuvers grant DR5, 10 and 20, at a cost of making only a single attack with no particular added damage. There's also a stance that grants DR2/-, but it ends if you move more than 5' in a round and thus will eat up precious swift actions.

A barbarian will always have his DR, and can make multiple attacks per round or can move and keep his DR.

Yes, Devoted Spirit heals. Yes it's Crusader only.

As for the paladin.. 2-H weapon and power attack tends to out damage Sword/Board w/o power attack. Besides, we're at level 10 (5th level maneuvers). White Raven and Diamond Mind don't really have a high-damage strike at 5th level... High damage strike is still level 4 White Raven Strike... +4d6 damage/flat footed. The party rogue loves it.

If you're playing White Raven / Diamond Mind, you shouldn't expect to outdamage the Barbarian. White Raven shines at helping the whole team out (one reason I like that school, though the broken manoeuvres in it are still problematic). Diamond Mind will allow you to outdamage everyone with some ridiculous damage numbers for their level at a few key levels if you focus on Concentration, but level 10 is not a good level for the Diamond Minder to deal damage. It's better at keeping you out of tight spots.

As for DR/- vs DR/adamantine, I have found that for a player, there is very little difference. For an enemy, it is a huge difference. This is because few enemies bring to bear significant adamantine attacks unless the GM designs it that way to be mean. But it's true that the Stone Dragon techniques work a whole lot better for a Crusader than a Warblade. Don't forget that you lose the Stone Dragon when you aren't standing on the ground, also, another advantage for the Barbarian. Of course, the Barbarian needs the DR because she is likely to have a substantially lower AC than the Warblade.

 

[Prophet2b]

Is the only solution available to melee classes giving them balls of fire, healing abilities, and the ability to teleport through shadows? Cause if so- that's sad... It's destroying a staple of classic fantasy.

Well... If I wanted to play classic fantasy, I would start by NOT playing D&D. D&D is D&D - which is most definitely not classic fantasy.

That said, I don't think you can create that kind of fighter. Take Aragorn or Legolas for example - you'd HAVE to be in Epic Levels to do what they do, and even then you couldn't actually do all of it. The mechanics of D&D just don't lend themselves to that kind of character creation. Unless you do Gestalt - you might be able to do it then.

Classic fantasy fighters aren't just good at hitting things, though. They always have amazing skills, high charisma, they're wise and intelligent, etc. In fact, fighting is probably one of their least noticeable abilities when they're considered on the whole.

D&D adjusts for this by taking those classic elements and dividing them up, in many cases. You can be great at fighting, or great at skills, or else you're semi-decent in both, but never great in both. The classic fantasy fighter is always more than just a fighter. For mechanical reasons, you just can't do that in D&D. Not without every player under the sun screaming foul.

The closest I've seen is Bo9S. Which is another reason I love it so much. You don't have to create a character centered around supernatural powers. He can be a pure swordsman if you want him to. And, on top of that, he gets half-way decent skills, etc. Wizards just decided to leave it in the hands of the players, in this case. They can do that, or they can choose more "magical" type abilities (a battle sorcerer, if you will). It's all there - it's just all up to the player.

 

[Rystil Arden]

If you have issues w/the flavor/mechanics... Why are you on the rules forum? Isn't there a house-rule forum that would love to hear your ideas?

In my experience, it seems there are fewer people saying "I have a few issues..." and more people saying "Warblade is broken! All PHB melee classes are obsolete!" And in my opinion, those people are wrong. And yes, I'll argue that they're wrong... I think people who come here looking for information need both sides of the story.

I play a warblade (diamond mind/white raven) in a party with a paladin and a barbarian/fighter... The barbarian consistently out damages me, has more Hp, and damage reduction. The paladin will out damage me on a smite, and can also heal people and do paladin-y things.

Anyway... If you like your restrictions and fixes... Great. Enjoy your game however you feel best about it. I'm just of the opinion that people should try it out as written first, with as few changes as possible. Then if it's necessary, they can change whatever they feel needs it. And then discuss it in house rules, instead of trying to tell people that the classes only work if you do X.

But the two sides of your story ("Warblades are broken! They make the game blow up! Ban the Bo9S!" and "You're doing it wrong if the Bo9S isn't perfect in your game because there are no possible balance issues and it works perfectly and causes no possible side effects") are not all pieces of the story. I don't agree with either of those, as should be readily apparent from my posts. By trying to paint it with an either/or fallacy and claiming there are 'two' sides, you obscure the point that other people are trying to make.

Also, the Rules forum is most definitely the place for 'I'm having issues with standard option X. Am I running it wrong? What would you suggest as minor fixes or tweaks?" (I can point you to many threads of that ilk). House Rules is for 'I've just invented my own totally new class/magic system/d20 rules system/etc. Let me share it with you / can you help me analyse it for balance flaws'.

 

[Prophet2b]

If you have issues w/the flavor/mechanics... Why are you on the rules forum? Isn't there a house-rule forum that would love to hear your ideas?

Maybe I have no right to point this out , but I read it for the first time today, so I thought I might do it anyway.

And while I don't entirely agree with Rystil, either, I, for one, am finding his posts highly intriguing and worth reading. I like hearing middle view-points just as well as extreme ones.

 

[Zurai]

Some of your suggestions are okay, and I have already done this myself when I include them, though the Diamond Mind as fencing I find to be particularly offsetting (in a "Huh, I can't see how that suggestion would possibly work for anyone" kind of way). Nothing that the Diamond Mind school does comes even close to resembling Swashbuckling. You'd need to rewrite the manoeuvres in it for mechanics as well.

Fencing (with a capital F, as in the sport, and what most people are talking about when they say that Diamond Mind == Fencing) has absolutely nothing in common with Swashbuckling. Swashbuckling is showy, full of flair and quirky maneuvers ("I'm not left handed either!"). Fencing is a sport designed around concentration, reading your opponents' moves, and acting with the perfect counterattack before they even start their intended attack.

Fencing - real Fencing - fits absolutely perfectly with Diamond Mind. Swashbuckling doesn't. Mainly because Fencing is what the designers had in mind when creating Diamond Mind, not Swashbuckling

 

[Rystil Arden]

Fencing (with a capital F, as in the sport, and what most people are talking about when they say that Diamond Mind == Fencing) has absolutely nothing in common with Swashbuckling. Swashbuckling is showy, full of flair and quirky maneuvers ("I'm not left handed either!"). Fencing is a sport designed around concentration, reading your opponents' moves, and acting with the perfect counterattack before they even start their intended attack.

Fencing - real Fencing - fits absolutely perfectly with Diamond Mind. Swashbuckling doesn't. Mainly because Fencing is what the designers had in mind when creating Diamond Mind, not Swashbuckling

A few of the Diamond Mind manoeuvres work for fencing the sport, sort of, but most of them do not. Though it does include the rapier as a choice, I think what's most telling is that it calls out 'bastard sword(katana)'. It is pretty clear from the school description and some of the manoeuvres that they're looking much more at iado as the inspiration.

If I was going to make a Fencer school, it would use a select a precious few of the Diamond Mind manoeuvres, but I would also include some of the non-throw Setting Sun manoeuvres, particularly some of the counters, as better fits.

 

[Fedifensor]

Quick question for the experts while everyone is talking about Bo9S - how do crits interact with maneuver damage? My understanding is that bonus damage from a maneuver is not affected by criticals, so you can't multiply the +100 damage from the Strike of Perfect Clarity by the crit multiplier (which would be devastating). But that does leave a few questions unanswered.

If I use Ruby Nightmare Blade, make the Concentration check, and get a critical hit (x2 crit multiplier) with a weapon that does 1d8+8, is the damage then tripled (using the rules for doubling a hit that is already doubled)?

If I use Insightful Strike and roll a 30 on my Concentration check, how much damage is done on a critical hit (same weapon as above)? 30? 60? Something else? The confusion is due to Insightful Strike replacing the damage of the weapon - so it's no longer bonus damage, but the base damage of the weapon.

 

[Zurai]

Quick question for the experts while everyone is talking about Bo9S - how do crits interact with maneuver damage? My understanding is that bonus damage from a maneuver is not affected by criticals, so you can't multiply the +100 damage from the Strike of Perfect Clarity by the crit multiplier (which would be devastating). But that does leave a few questions unanswered.

Your understanding is incorrect. Bonus damage - Strike of Perfect Clarity, for example - is indeed multiplied, just like bonus damage from strength, weapon enhancement bonuses, and Weapon Specialization is. Bonus damage dice - most other strikes - are not multiplied, just as sneak attack dice and flaming weapon dice are not multiplied.

If I use Ruby Nightmare Blade, make the Concentration check, and get a critical hit (x2 crit multiplier) with a weapon that does 1d8+8, is the damage then tripled (using the rules for doubling a hit that is already doubled)?

Yes.

If I use Insightful Strike and roll a 30 on my Concentration check, how much damage is done on a critical hit (same weapon as above)? 30? 60? Something else? The confusion is due to Insightful Strike replacing the damage of the weapon - so it's no longer bonus damage, but the base damage of the weapon.

60.

 

[Zurai]

A few of the Diamond Mind manoeuvres work for fencing the sport, sort of, but most of them do not. Though it does include the rapier as a choice, I think what's most telling is that it calls out 'bastard sword(katana)'. It is pretty clear from the school description and some of the manoeuvres that they're looking much more at iado as the inspiration.

Out of scholarly curiosity, what maneuvers do you think do not fit Fencing from the Diamond Mind school?

And yes, Iajutsu-type action was also an inspiration for Diamond Mind. The essentials of the two ... art forms? sports? ... are very similar. The actual attacks are different, but (from my understanding, which may well be incomplete) the theories and thought processes behind them are much alike.

 

[Vorput]

That said, I don't think you can create that kind of fighter. Take Aragorn or Legolas for example - you'd HAVE to be in Epic Levels to do what they do, and even then you couldn't actually do all of it. The mechanics of D&D just don't lend themselves to that kind of character creation. Unless you do Gestalt - you might be able to do it then.

Classic fantasy fighters aren't just good at hitting things, though. They always have amazing skills, high charisma, they're wise and intelligent, etc. In fact, fighting is probably one of their least noticeable abilities when they're considered on the whole.

I disgaree, Legalos/Aragon synergize pretty well with 14th-15th level characters IMHO.

And Conan, Druss, Hercules (sort of), those guys from 300, Caramon, Beowulf- they weren't known for their skills/intelligence (maybe their wisdom, but it's battle wisdom). Maybe those things were present in the stories, but when people think of them- they think there were damn good with their weapons, swung the tides of battles, killed crazy powerful mythical beasts- and never needed any spells or magical abilities (maybe magic weapons/items, but that's a different story).

As has probably been mentioned above, I have no problem with Bo9S classes doing warriorish stuff (like their extraordinary abilities), I do have a problem with replacing the fighter/monk with someone who shoots fireballs from their hands :-/

Vorp