D&D 5E Tome of Beasts 5E

[FormerlyHemlock]

I know I am late to the game. Just got back into DnD last fall and after being a player for 7 months I am taking over as DM.

That being said I just picked up the Tome of Beasts 5E. Overall I must say I love the book. I could use a few less CR20 plus threats, I know they look cool and are cool to read, but how many do you end up using really.

Well, I mean, you could use all of them even at low levels. 5E is deliberately designed so that monsters and PCs across a wide range of levels can interact. Just because your PCs are 3rd level doesn't mean a CR 22 Jotun Giant can't waltz right into their king's throne room, plop himself down on the throne (probably in shapechanged form), and declare himself the new king and the old king the new court jester. What are the PCs going to do about it?

I can think of at least one method which my players have in the past actually used which would allow them to depose and kill the usurper before the week is out. It might play out that way, or maybe they spend the next several adventures trying to rally enough common folk to their side to give them a chance to defeat the giant in open battle. Or maybe they try to toady up to it and become its favorites, and ask it for information on where to find good treasure. Or maybe they do something else entirely.

I'm just surprised at this idea that a monster in a book is useless to a DM unless the monster is something the PCs can kill in under eighteen seconds. It's not useless.

 

[dave2008]

Yes, a lot of their CR levels are off, compared to MM. However, the MM values don't really align well with the DMG guidelines either, and a lot of monsters in MM do not warrant their CR level, especially at higher levels. IMO, the ToB CR levels are probably more 'correct' than the MM ones, on average, but you'll need to use your DM-mojo to judge it for your table (which you'll need to do with MM monsters at some point as your PC's level up, anyway).

Actually I will dispute the bold part. The MM monsters are, from my experience, extremely faithful to the DMG guidelines. The issue I see is that most people do not implement the full guidelines when the are cross-checking the monsters and calculating CR. If you take into account resistances, immunities, spells, and features, the MM is very faithful to the DMG. There are outliers with odd monsters and the MM tends to round round up when I would round down (make a CR 7.5 an 8 when I would call it a 7), but it is very faithful to the DMG.

Now, many people on these forums believe those CRs are off in terms of a real challenge and more so at higher levels, but it is faithful to the DMG.

 

[cmad1977]

I think you're underestimating the power of 4 5th level PCs.


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[JacktheRabbit]

Well, I mean, you could use all of them even at low levels. 5E is deliberately designed so that monsters and PCs across a wide range of levels can interact. Just because your PCs are 3rd level doesn't mean a CR 22 Jotun Giant can't waltz right into their king's throne room, plop himself down on the throne (probably in shapechanged form), and declare himself the new king and the old king the new court jester. What are the PCs going to do about it?

I can think of at least one method which my players have in the past actually used which would allow them to depose and kill the usurper before the week is out.

<snip>

I'm just surprised at this idea that a monster in a book is useless to a DM unless the monster is something the PCs can kill in under eighteen seconds. It's not useless.

Yes and given infinite time to plan, access to kryptonite, and a guarantee that Superman acts like a complete idiot and Batman can beat him in a fight. That doesnt make it a good movie nor a good adventure campaign except as the very occasional example "sometimes you just have to run because the world is full of big scary things" situation.

I just find the book has far too many demigod level demons and devils. Sure they make great final boss behind everything for the end of your campaign. But how many times and how often do you have campaigns make it to that level in a campaign. A book, I feel, should have some low level monsters, a few high level, and the bulk should be a large variety of foes ranging from CR6 to CR12 where the characters will often spend the lionshare of their adventuring life.

 

[JacktheRabbit]

I think you're underestimating the power of 4 5th level PCs.


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Could they win? Sure, but they are not going to win while expending 25-33% of their daily firepower and played intelligently that iron ghoul has more than enough oomph to kill one or more of the PCs which should not be the point of a CR level foe that matches the parties level.

 

[dave2008]

For reference I checked a few high CR monsters

Balor MM CR: 19 DMG CR: 18.5

Pit Fiend MM CR: 20 DMG CR: 21

Ancient Red Dragon MM CR: 24 DMG CR: 24.5

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

I checked the Leshy. Tome of Beasts has it listed as CR 1, but it's actually CR 2 even without counting the spells.

It's disappointing to see a book of monsters getting such basic calculations wrong.

Could they win? Sure, but they are not going to win while expending 25-33% of their daily firepower and played intelligently that iron ghoul has more than enough oomph to kill one or more of the PCs which should not be the point of a CR level foe that matches the parties level.

I agree that the Tome of Beasts's CR calculation errors have a large impact on the game. Thank you for bringing it to my attention; after I bought the book I skimmed through the monsters, but have rarely used anything from it and never checked the math in detail. I knew that Mithril Dragons had the wrong CR, for example, but it never occurred to me that that was anything other than an isolated issue. Now I feel that I probably ought to re-calculate the CR of anything from the Tome of Beasts, so that I don't accidentally cheat any PCs out of their hard-earned XP.

 

[Jester David]

The CRs are designed to be "tougher." Like Fifth Edition Foes. It hews closer to the DMG guidelines than the MM, and rounds fractions down on CRs. Because PCs are tough and will find ways to win.

Most of them were also playtester by backers. Especially the high level ones. I feel comfortable using most.

 

[jimmytheccomic]

Tome of Beasts is my favorite 5e supplement- I use at least one creature from it every session.

I found the core MM book tended towards a lot of creatures that really boiled down too "Bag of hit points and multi-attack". Tome of Beasts has more creatures that inflict status effects, or have some interesting mechanic to build a centerpiece fight around. The creatures are more fun to play from the DM side of the table than the core MM creatures are, for me at least.

 

[Jester David]

For reference I checked a few high CR monsters

Balor MM CR: 19 DMG CR: 18.5

Pit Fiend MM CR: 20 DMG CR: 21

Ancient Red Dragon MM CR: 24 DMG CR: 24.5

Defensive CRs of 13, 16, and 24.

So the final CRs should be 15.5, 18.5, and 24.

-edit-
(okay, super tired and totally read "DMG" as "damage").
(Still... monsters like the lich and vampire seem totally below expected numbers.)