Tome of Horrors overlaps with new Fiend Folio

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Shoon!

Sorry to break your ice, but they aren't. Epic level is, IMHO, just an exercise at stat inflation: I do not want 10 epic monsters gracing a book I bought when I could have 10 useful or just plain ridiculous monsters (sorry, but I've chuckled when I saw the grick. The atropal, for all its power and glory, didn't even do that to me )

I wasn't asking for epic coverage in the Monster Manual, simply subsequent generic products, like Monster Manual 2 and the Fiend Folio.

Oh yes, let's go back to the 2E days. I remember buying Lands of Intrigue, and not knowing whether to laugh or cry when I discovered Zazzespur had some spaceport of some kind (Spelljammer appeasing? WTF?).

The problem with your argument is that you are refering to specific settings. Specific being the key word here.

What I am asking is for coverage in generic volumes; Monster Manual 2; Fiend Folio; Arms and Equipment Guide etc.

I've heard this exact same complaint during the late 2E-era: the fanbase would simply melt away, because WotC would not support the oh-so-important settings of Spelljammer and Mystara

There you go with those settings again...

Psionics, spell seeds and epic feats, not to mention epic progression, are "intrinsic rules mechanics". I don't want WotC to repeat the same fiasco T$R did with the 2E MM, which had some 20 totally unusable psionic monsters.

Dry your eyes...

It had 23 (some with dual stats like the Mind Flayer) out of 647...approx 3.5%

Actually this percentage is comparable to the amount of Psionic Monsters in the Monster Manual 2! So actually the double standard is already there. They are happy supporting Psionic Campaigns within generic volumes but not Epic/Immortal ones.

Note that I am not complaining about Psionic Monsters in MM2, although of them the Gem Dragons should have been in the Psionics Handbook.

 

[Gez]

They are happy supporting Psionic Campaigns within generic volumes but not Epic/Immortal ones.

Well, they are actually supporting all campaigns, including epic ones, that feature psionics.

Furthermore, they already released a monster manual for epic campaigns... It is called Deities & Demigods

More seriously, I'm not sure there's really a need for new epic monsters. They tend to get a bit ridiculous. And with fiendish PrC, templates and stuff (epic-pseudonatural paragon half slarecian dragon axiomatic pit fiend of legend with a host of symbionts), epic encounters may be made up from already existing blocks.

I call that the Desmodu Syndrome: generic monsters are not meant to be used at all level. Desmodu don't make sense because 12-HD humanoids don't make sense. In the ELH, I have the same doubt on the LeShay. Epic level is about special individuals, not bland random encounters. So, one could have placed a 60 HD epic goblin race in the Fiend Folio. Would have it made sense ? I don't think so. Encounters and combat, when they occurs, are not simple kick-in-the-door and whack-on-the-head. They demand preparation. More preparation than creating a new monster. They demand to be tailor-made. Which ain't possible in a generic book.

It also somewhat breaks the cosmology of the game. So I have my 50 HD Asmodeus ruling over all Hell. Mere pit fiends, who may at best become 39 HD, have no hope to be a match for him. Other archdevils, capping at 45, can't cope either. Still, Asmo must obey to higher powers, vile deities with their divine ranks and 60+ HD.

And then, suddenly, appear a race of überfiends, devils with 200 HD and squamous blast attack. They can eat the whole pantheon for breakfast. And they are supposed to always have been there. Either I decide I won't use them, and they are lost bookspace, or I use them and have to reword my cosmology, maybe even multiplying ten times the stats of my outsider overlords and gods. Which is boring and time-consuming, and break consistency if there has already been interaction with the party of PCs.

Oh, and besides, it is better for you they don't release too much epic monsters anyway. Havn't you said you had too much monsters in your IH already and you were going to cut more than a few for the release ? This will allow you to sell "Immortal Monsters" as a sourcebook for the IH...

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Gez mate!

Well, they are actually supporting all campaigns, including epic ones, that feature psionics.

Furthermore, they already released a monster manual for epic campaigns... It is called Deities & Demigods

More seriously, I'm not sure there's really a need for new epic monsters. They tend to get a bit ridiculous. And with fiendish PrC, templates and stuff (epic-pseudonatural paragon half slarecian dragon axiomatic pit fiend of legend with a host of symbionts), epic encounters may be made up from already existing blocks.

I call that the Desmodu Syndrome: generic monsters are not meant to be used at all level. Desmodu don't make sense because 12-HD humanoids don't make sense. In the ELH, I have the same doubt on the LeShay. Epic level is about special individuals, not bland random encounters. So, one could have placed a 60 HD epic goblin race in the Fiend Folio. Would have it made sense ? I don't think so. Encounters and combat, when they occurs, are not simple kick-in-the-door and whack-on-the-head. They demand preparation. More preparation than creating a new monster. They demand to be tailor-made. Which ain't possible in a generic book.

It also somewhat breaks the cosmology of the game. So I have my 50 HD Asmodeus ruling over all Hell. Mere pit fiends, who may at best become 39 HD, have no hope to be a match for him. Other archdevils, capping at 45, can't cope either. Still, Asmo must obey to higher powers, vile deities with their divine ranks and 60+ HD.

And then, suddenly, appear a race of überfiends, devils with 200 HD and squamous blast attack. They can eat the whole pantheon for breakfast. And they are supposed to always have been there. Either I decide I won't use them, and they are lost bookspace, or I use them and have to reword my cosmology, maybe even multiplying ten times the stats of my outsider overlords and gods. Which is boring and time-consuming, and break consistency if there has already been interaction with the party of PCs.

I think if you define the epic concept well enough then the monster works (take the Atropal, Hecatonchiere and Xixecal for instance). Whereas if you just inflate something that could conceivably already exist as a non-epic monster (such as the Ha-Naga, Hoary Hunter and Sirrush) then it doesn't 'gel' as well.

Oh, and besides, it is better for you they don't release too much epic monsters anyway. Havn't you said you had too much monsters in your IH already and you were going to cut more than a few for the release ? This will allow you to sell "Immortal Monsters" as a sourcebook for the IH...

The problem there, is that in writing the IH, there are no surprises for me anymore. Which is why I am hankering for someone else to add some epic/immortal interest.

 

[Knight Otu]

Furthermore, they already released a monster manual for epic campaigns... It is called Deities & Demigods

I absolutely hate that line of thinking. Gods, even (especially!) statted ones, are NPCs, not monsters. What should we think about a person who thinks a book of NPCs is a monster manual?
If anything, D&DG is the "Enemies and Allies" for epic campaigns.

And exactly how are powerful monsters a bad decisions if their numbers are low?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey there!

And exactly how are powerful monsters a bad decisions if their numbers are low?

Preach on stranger...we're all right behind you!

 

[Gez]

And exactly how are powerful monsters a bad decisions if their numbers are low?

A race can't be low in number.
Dragons are a good example of how to rationalize übercreatures (they get more powerful with times, and few get to become really old), but dragons are a pain to design, compared with other beasties.
Extraplanar beasties are another way to deal with it. Anything goes with the planes. Still, they will be supposed to be within some clear boundaries. Why would a rank-and-file überdemon obey to a demonlord who has not even half its HD ?
Unique creatures are a third way to do that. That's what UK said when he talked about archfiends. And then, you no longer have a monster manual, but a book of NPCs -- you said it yourself.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Gez mate!

Extraplanar beasties are another way to deal with it. Anything goes with the planes. Still, they will be supposed to be within some clear boundaries. Why would a rank-and-file überdemon obey to a demonlord who has not even half its HD ?

Unique creatures are a third way to do that. That's what UK said when he talked about archfiends. And then, you no longer have a monster manual, but a book of NPCs -- you said it yourself.

You are actually paraphrasing me out of context.

The question was about demons in the IH; I iterated that the numbers were very few because you would have to explain where generic demons more powerful than Balors (to use an example) had been hiding all this time.

Of course there are a few ways round this but you want to avoid throwing a proverbial spanner into the works.

One point of note, there are no demons in the Epic Level Handbook.

 

[Knight Otu]

A race can't be low in number.

I actually meant a low number of monsters in the book compared to lower powered creatures, not numbers in the game world.
But I more or less agree with your observations on powerful creatures.

 

[blackshirt5]

UK, speaking of the IH, when is it gonna be done and available?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey blackshirt5 mate!

UK, speaking of the IH, when is it gonna be done and available?

I will be working on tweaking various elements right up until Deities & Demigods and the Epic Level Handbook are entered into the System Reference Document.

Once that happens the release should go ahead within a week.