Tome of Horrors overlaps with new Fiend Folio

[Pants]

Hmm, I like having two sources for some monsters, gives me a chance to pick which version I like better. I'm still glad I bought the ToH and I've even recommended it to friends

 

[kenjib]

two monsters. and why should they reprint OGC if they don't want to?

Oops, sorry for my bad memory. Yes, two. I was simply pointing out that MM II was not a good example of WotC having strong integration of OGL material. I'm actually undecided as to whether or not it really matters. I don't think I really even care. On the one hand we would have more uniformity in rules and thus higher cross-compatibility. On the other hand we would have fewer choices of different rule sets for a given topic due to the exact same phenomenon. On the one hand we can also get some of the better 3rd party material without having to buy more books. On the other hand this means reprinted material and wasted money for those who own both books.

This doesn't change my opinion that the OGC in MM II was clearly lip service though.

 

[The Sigil]

Missed the back of MM2? The one where it specifically says other people are producing quality material and even *gasp* uses other peoples' OGC?

Saw it. Wasn't entirely sure they even got the OGL right (as it turns out, they got special permission from Clark Peterson so it was right). As has already been pointed out, lip service.

Two monsters, in the very back of the monster book, clearly meant not as inclusions with WotC stuff, but essentially as a "tooting our own horn, aren't we great" move... blah. That's not "using" other peoples' OGC, that's advertising "how great we are."

When WotC incorporates the rules for enhancing familiars found in Spells & Spellcraft (FFG) into the PH or the T&B splat equivalent, I'll be impressed. When they incorporate into the DMG the rules for intelligent weapons in the Book of Eldritch Might III (Malhavoc), I'll be impressed. When they drop in several demons and devils from Armies of the Abyss and Legions of Hell (Green Ronin) to go with their MM3, I'll be impressed. When they add Prestige Classes from the Scarred Lands stuff (SSS) to "WotC's PrCs", I'll be impressed.

Then again, very few third-party publishers are re-using material, either, so perhaps it's foolish for me to imagine WotC doing so... When will d20 publishers (WotC included) quit re-inventing the wheel and work on inventing the station wagon?

Then again, I guess I just (foolishly) hoped that when somebody came out with a crackerjack system of doing something, that would quickly become the de facto standard across the d20 publishing community. We wouldn't see the same thing hit from 20 angles over the course of 3 years.

Yes, there would be re-prints - but I think reprinting stuff to add to the "completeness" of a collection is a GOOD thing, not a bad thing - provided there is useful NEW content as well.

Although, as we have seen from Green Ronin's Arcane/Divine Grimoires, a lot of people LIKE a "cut/paste of the best of the best" but with no new material.

--The Sigil

 

[Samnell]

One monster, not even alphabetized with the rest of the book. Lip service.

Irrelevant. I don't see Malhavoc busting it's butt to use stuff from other companies and no one complains about them not doing it. They don't even do lip service. Where's the outrage for Monte?

Honestly, so what? Who cares? Why should WOTC use other companies' content if it doesn't care to? This makes no sense to me. I don't see why it's an issue to anyone.

 

[Samnell]

When WotC incorporates the rules for enhancing familiars found in Spells & Spellcraft (FFG) into the PH or the T&B splat equivalent, I'll be impressed. When they incorporate into the DMG the rules for intelligent weapons in the Book of Eldritch Might III (Malhavoc), I'll be impressed. When they drop in several demons and devils from Armies of the Abyss and Legions of Hell (Green Ronin) to go with their MM3, I'll be impressed. When they add Prestige Classes from the Scarred Lands stuff (SSS) to "WotC's PrCs", I'll be impressed.

Why? I can't think of any earthly reason someone would be impressed about such a thing, unless of course you authored the material yourself so you get a kick out of seeing someone else pick it up.

Then again, very few third-party publishers are re-using material, either, so perhaps it's foolish for me to imagine WotC doing so... When will d20 publishers (WotC included) quit re-inventing the wheel and work on inventing the station wagon?

Probably about the same time everyone decides conclusively that they want this one way of doing X and that's the only way they want and they have no interest in alternatives. In a word: never. Why would anyone even want that?

 

[Bendris Noulg]

Actually, I'm seeing more and more overlap every day.

GR's Witches Handbook uses R&R's Ritual Casting rules, and MEG's upcoming Dog's of War (V1I1) uses a ToH's critter, an SKR template, some material from Bastion's Arms & Armor, and spells from several different sources. S&SS's R&R2 uses stuff from If Thoughts Could Kill. And GR's Races of Renown series has integration with other companies as a purposeful intention of the product line. I think it's a matter of the major niches getting filled in with various products; Now more overlapping items are starting to emerge.

As for MM2, I also agree that it's lip service and horn-blowing; If the critters were integrated into the rest of the book rather than seperate, it would have been more condusive to the point they were attempting (or claimed to be attempting) to make.

On the overlap, I don't really care. I tend to modify a lot of stuff myself, and all the high-ranking Demon/Devil material I use integrates not only ELH, BoVD and D&DG material (which even WotC isn't doing), but 3rd party material as well. So I welcome the overlap; It lets me pick the one I like best, which is more often someone else's material than it is WotC.

I've even taken multiple systems and merged them into the single system that works best for my campaign. And if that isn't a good thing, than the entire OGC concept is pointless.

 

[jgbrowning]

Probably about the same time everyone decides conclusively that they want this one way of doing X and that's the only way they want and they have no interest in alternatives. In a word: never. Why would anyone even want that?

Consistancy and portability. If WoTC would adopt the very good rules created by other publishers, such rules would become more cannonical and therefore more portable between gaming groups as well as more accessible via other 3rd party publishers.

Having cannonical rules doesn't imply that there's only one way to do things nor does it imply a reduction of creativity via 3rd party publishers. We currently have cannonical rules about how magic works, but look at all the different things out there that differ.

joe b.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

Actually, I'm seeing more and more overlap every day.

GR's Witches Handbook uses R&R's Ritual Casting rules, and MEG's upcoming Dog's of War (V1I1) uses a ToH's critter, an SKR template, some material from Bastion's Arms & Armor, and spells from several different sources. S&SS's R&R2 uses stuff from If Thoughts Could Kill. And GR's Races of Renown series has integration with other companies as a purposeful intention of the product line. I think it's a matter of the major niches getting filled in with various products; Now more overlapping items are starting to emerge.

The examples you give are more in keeping with what the intent of the Tome of Horrors was - to put all these critters into the realm of OGC, so other d20 publishers could use them in conjunction with what is in the SRD. It's not the same as WotC making "official," non-OGC versions of critters that overlap.

 

[Bendris Noulg]

Actually, CH, the paragraph you quote isn't about WotC's use, so your response isn't exactly in context (or, that is to say, it's in context until your last sentance... to which...)

It's not the same as WotC making "official," non-OGC versions of critters that overlap.

I guess it depends what you define as "official". For me, it's always what I bring to the table as the DM (or, in those rare instances where I get to actually play, what the DM brings to the table). Whether the source is WotC or someone else doesn't really have any bearing in the matter, only that it contributes to the fun of the game and the depthness of the setting.

So, again, I invite more overlap. It's only more material for me to pick, choose and scavange from.

 

[Nightfall]

Ben,

I figured that was what you're responding too. However I guess for someone like me it would be nice to see a little more recognition by other publishers using OGC stuff. (Though it is cool that Dark Portal Games use True Rituals. Nice going guys! )