Tome of Horrors - The Art (oh the horrors!)

[Flexor the Mighty!]

And just what are you smoking? This has ZERO to do with "fear of zealots." Demons are demons in 3e but what were once confusingly called daemons are now not. Are you honsetly claiming that is because of fear of zealots? I think you have forgotten this is not the 80s. Wake up and smell the 21st century.

1e - Daemons, Devils, & Demons

2e- None at first. I remember reading Dragon when 2e was on the horizon and they were scared of zealot moms, "Oh D&D is corrupting my little Johnny with it's devils and satanism!"
Then they put them back in but as they were still pussies they called them idiotic names. "Oh we don't have demons, but we have Tannari, Batezzu and Yugololths(however these names are spelled)". Yeah those names really invoke awe in my players.

3e - a mix of the crappy names put on them and the old monikers.

So If I'm going to do 1e feel what do you think I'm going to name my daemons? Daemons? Exactly.

Get a clue.


P.S. Just go ahead and erase your insulting little apology at the bottom of your edit.

 

[Darkness]

Relax, my friends! Relax...

 

[uv23]

Somewhat of a tangent here. I was at the gaming store today - a rather large one - and spent an hour flipping through basically every d20 product available. And there was one commonilty among all of them: the art sucked. Nasty, terrible, lame stuff. Art is important, extremely. As the original poster stated, it evokes inspiration and provides the context for what you're reading. Especially in something like a monster book where you'd like to show your players what they're up against without making them spit out their coke and pizza through their noses when they guffaw at the supposedly scary beasties. Unfortunately, there's too big a drive to realase something.. anything.. into this market without assigning the proper budget on presentation. It makes the whole community look bad, compared to products from gaming houses such as Games Workshop. Anyways enough rambling from me. But you've hit on my biggest pet peeve in this market. Oh and for the record, I left buying nothing where I might have otherwise spent a good deal of coin.

 

[BOZ]

Flexor's response, though highly opinionated, is right on the nose. the only reasons the fiends were renamed was due to the late 80s/early 90s fear of the MADD crowd (mothers against dungeons and dragons - yes, it was a real group - for those who don't remember or never know). these people seriously threatened D&D at that time. it took 2-3 years before TSR took that first semi-brave step and brought them back, seriously toned down and renamed, but back again for sure. it was also this motivation that inspired the creators of planescape to rename the planes when that setting came out a few years later.

and then again, when WotC came out with D&D 3E a couple years ago, they took a bold step in denying what planescape was so defensive on. yes, tanar'ri ARE demons. baatezu ARE devils. then planes, though they may have other names, ARE heavens and hells.

in the end, that stance gave us the opinion that we all needed - take your pick, a rose by any other name, and all that.

 

[Crothian]

Somewhat of a tangent here. I was at the gaming store today - a rather large one - and spent an hour flipping through basically every d20 product available. And there was one commonilty among all of them: the art sucked.

I tend to agree. There have been a few exceptions, but overall I've not been happy with the art. It's served it's purpose, but hasn't lept off the page and demanded notice.

 

[Psion]

Flexor's response, though highly opinionated, is right on the nose.

I don't disagree that you guys made the right choice for what you were aiming to do.

What I was disagreeing with is the notion that the name of Yugoloths NOW has anything to do with fear of zealots. Wizards is publishing books with plenty of references to demons. The choice of using the old terms was deliberate and meaningful, not fearful.

Flexor needs to just get over his angst at the 2e era. It's over.

 

[Psion]

Get a clue.

Since you have totally missed my point, I do beleive that is you who needs the clue.

P.S. Just go ahead and erase your insulting little apology at the bottom of your edit.

It's not insulting, unlike your posts loaded with endearing terms like "pussies." I think if you are looking to edit out insulting content, the ball is in your court.

 

[BOZ]

come on fellas, i'd like to see this thread stay open, but if we cain't have some peace 'round these parts, sherrif darkness or sherrif piratecat might have to shut down this here little operation.


Edit: nutkinland is a better place for this sort of argument than here.

 

[Melan]

And of course, I would argue that the "customers are too stupid to recognize the difference between demons and daemons" argument insults my intelligence. Are we gamers really that dense? Aren't we supposed to be, like, "nerdy but clever" or something?

And as for the baatezu/tanar'ri/yugoloth names - yes, the beasts underneath were demons and devils. The mentality was the problem. Although these names are all just made up heaps o' letters, they DO invoke a certain image - that of a company that cares more about whining zealots than its own (supposedly intelligent) customers. WotC should have completely eradicated them from the books. They should also have put back Spiritwrack.

 

[Sanackranib]

artwork

Too a large degree each new edition since 1e has gone downhill artwork wise. yes some have gotten better bu most have suffered to 1 degree to another. So it should come as no surprise if there are folks out here who think the art has dropped in quality.