Tome of Horrors watered down?

[Christian Walker]

I was really hoping to see the Xvart, Meazerl, and Snyad. That, and I kind of liked the old Forlarren picture from the FF.


Nevertheless, I am impressed by the awesome OGC contribution. Simply amazing!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Grazzt]

Christian- the Snyad is in the book. Look under Mite. We called it the "Pestie" (its old parenthetical name from the original FF).

The Meazle is in 3e already (MM2 or the MoF; cant remember at the moment). The Xvart was in an issue of Living GH Journal.

 

[DnDChick]

Re: Excellent!

Well done and congrats to all those who worked on it. Thank you for your efforts and time.

joe b.

You're welcome

 

[Aeolius]

I posted my initial impression over here .

 

[Coyote]

Is it my imagination, or were the "old-school" creatures watered down some? For example, the Aarumvorax doesn't really seem like it earns its "Golden Gorger" moniker anymore.

I got this book earlier this week, and I've been doing LOTS of side-by-side comparisons with the original 1E books. I'm pretty impressed with how well the conversions were done. The Aurumvorax was actually one that I thought survived translation quite well - the biggest difference being that the arbitrary rule from 1E that the Aurumvorax can't ever let go is replaced with a fairly high grapple bonus. It amounts to a similar result, but those kind of arbitary rules in 1E always resulted in some weird confusion - like what if a PC cast a Wish that the Aurumvorax would release it's prey - which is more powerful, the Wish or the monster?

I'm pretty much in hog heaven here with this book.

 

[Darrin Drader]

Count me among the extremely impressed. However, I probably would have like to see a few more non-demonic monsters CR 10+. Despite this, I think that the monsters are in-line with the challenge ratings in the Monster Manual, making this what I would expect from another Monster Manual.

I have to admit that I laughed when I saw the Demonic Knight (known by some as the Death Knight...). So lets see, I think I was the first one on Noah's boards with a 3rd edition Death Knight conversion, which I revised sometime later. Then the Creature Catalog came out with their version, followed by another version by them that appeared in Mongoose's Necromancy: Beyond the Grave. Then I revised the Death Knight yet again, and it was first printed in Dragon and then Monster Manual II. Thinking that the definitive Death Knight had been created, I relaxed and went on to other projects. Now, Scott Green and company get the last word (for now) with the Demonic Knight. Of course you realize, this means war!

Just kidding guys. I think the Demonic Knight is an excellent creature. Good job on that.

All in all, I echo tldenmark's sentiments on this book. I've been enjoying a nice nostalgic feeling while flipping through the entries and deciding which ones will be used next time I get the opportunity. Kudos to Scott Green and the entire Necromancer Games staff.

 

[Alzrius]

I have to admit that I laughed when I saw the Demonic Knight (known by some as the Death Knight...). So lets see, I think I was the first one on Noah's boards with a 3rd edition Death Knight conversion, which I revised sometime later. Then the Creature Catalog came out with their version, followed by another version by them that appeared in Mongoose's Necromancy: Beyond the Grave. Then I revised the Death Knight yet again, and it was first printed in Dragon and then Monster Manual II. Thinking that the definitive Death Knight had been created, I relaxed and went on to other projects. Now, Scott Green and company get the last word (for now) with the Demonic Knight. Of course you realize, this means war!

Hate to mention it, but the last word on Death Knights is not in yet. I talked to the guy heading up Dragonlance 3E, and he assured me that they would do a Krynnish Death Knight, in a secondary book if not the initial campaign setting. The war for the 3E Death Knight goes on!

 

[DnDChick]

Well ... the Mongoose Death Knight, the Dragon/MM2 Death Knight, and the Tome of Horrors Demonic Knight are actually all different entities, inspired by our favorite armored fiend from the 1eFF.

The Death Knight actually has completely different powers and abilities, and is a unique Scot Greene/Matt Sprange co-creation. Included with the Death Knight is the nifty Grave Mount, the undead answer to the paladin's warhorse.

The Death Knight in Dragon/MM2 is supposed to be a more direct conversion of the original.

And ... as for the Demonic Knight ... I haven't gotten my copy of the Tome of Horros yet, so I can't really compare that one. I do recall (I think lol) that Scott had originally intended for it to be unlike the Death Knight, though.

 

[Darrin Drader]

I talked to the guy heading up Dragonlance 3E, and he assured me that they would do a Krynnish Death Knight, in a secondary book if not the initial campaign setting. The war for the 3E Death Knight goes on!

This brings up an interesting point. The Death Knight in 2E was Krynn specific, and other than a Dragon article where it was given a more complete treatment, its roots in the Fiend Folio, hence Greyhawk since Dragonlance wasn't aroud yet, were never aknowledged. Lord Soth was a very cool Dragonlance character (one of my favorites in fact), but I was never content with the explanation that Death Knights were only Knights of Solamnia that had turned to the dark side and had come back to slay jedi (chuckle).

QUOTE]Originally posted by DnDChick
And ... as for the Demonic Knight ... I haven't gotten my copy of the Tome of Horros yet, so I can't really compare that one. I do recall (I think lol) that Scott had originally intended for it to be unlike the Death Knight, though.[/QUOTE]

There are similarities and huge differences. For one thing, it isn't undead. Another thing is that there are supposed to be only 9 of them in existence rather than the 12 quoted in the original Fiend Folio. Under the credit section, the Demonic Knight does not claim to have originally appeared in the first edition Fiend Folio, suggesting that the term Death Knight might be an incorrect moniker attached to it by people who don't understand the difference between demonic knights and true Death Knights.

All in all, I think it actually very cool that so many versions of the Death Knight have cropped up. Just for fun, I think one day I might design an adventure using a few of the different versions.

Speaking of designing adventures, I would really like it if WotC would release some, if not all, of the monsters in MMII as open game content. If I ever do write an adventure using the (my) MMII death knight, it will have to be published through Dungeon, or not at all.

 

[Alzrius]

This brings up an interesting point. The Death Knight in 2E was Krynn specific, and other than a Dragon article where it was given a more complete treatment, its roots in the Fiend Folio, hence Greyhawk since Dragonlance wasn't aroud yet, were never aknowledged. Lord Soth was a very cool Dragonlance character (one of my favorites in fact), but I was never content with the explanation that Death Knights were only Knights of Solamnia that had turned to the dark side and had come back to slay jedi (chuckle).

Tell me about it. I remember that old 1E article on St. Kargoth, and was delighted to see all that brought back in that Living Greyhawk Journal that came out around a year ago or so. That was some damn good stuff.

All in all, I think it actually very cool that so many versions of the Death Knight have cropped up. Just for fun, I think one day I might design an adventure using a few of the different versions.

For everyone just checking in, lets recap on the existing Death Knights and variants so far:

The Mongoose version from Necromancy: Beyond the Grave, which is a class, and at 20th level basically has all the old Death Knight powers except the Fireball.

The Living Greyhawk Journal template, which basically has nothing but the Fireball.

The MM2 version (which I haven't seen yet).

The Death Knight variant "Demonic Knight" in the Tome of Horrors.

The forthcoming Krynnish Death Knight, from Sovereign Stone Press.

Of course, you know what we need now...a Demonic Knight (or MM2 Death Knight, if its a non-template monster) with twenty levels of Death Knight from Necromancy, with the LGJ's Death Knight template!