Toning Down the Magic

[S'mon]

Jester's idea is good, as long as you keep plenty of 'good' spells on the lists it doesn't raise a major balance issue. In general though Clerics & Druids need much more toning down than do Wizzes and Sorcs if you want to keep the arcane casters viable.

 

[S'mon]

Thats a relative statement.

Yes. Just thinking that in standard 3e PCs get +1 items around 4th level and +2 around (maybe) 6th level. BTW my favourite ever D&D scenario hands out a +2 greatsword with Detect Chaos to 1st level PCs.

 

[monboesen]

If you do this though I strongly recommend letting the spellcaster caster level = their character level, not their class level, otherwise they will be underpowered vs single-class non-spellcaster PCs. So a Wiz-5/Ftr-5 should cast 10d6 fireballs not 5d6 fireballs.

My solutions for low magic game:

1. Spellcaster can only take 1/2 levels in any 1 spellcaster class (can be Wiz/Clr if desired), but their casting level = the lower of their character level or TWICE their highest spellcaster class level, so Wiz-4/Ftr-6 casts at 8th level (eg 3 magic missiles).

I wholeheartedly agree with all of that.

And yes you should give out more feats and stat increases, possibly one per level of each to give players rewards. Especially if the game is designed to go from 1-10 level. Players will love you for that and it won't get out of whack.

I think I would limit them to increasing the same stat only at every second level then. To avoid +10 to str, int, etc.

 

[twofalls]

The spells are going to be problematical. I think what I will do is pull the two spellcasters asise and aske them to work with me to hit the goal of lowering the power down on spells. That way they have a sayso in the process and won't feel nerfed so much.

I realized I'd best keep a list of the maigc I've handed out, so I pulled together a bunch of it and here is what has been distributed so far;

+2 Glowing Scimitar (sold in Zoa to cover expenses)
+1 Dwarven War Axe
+1 Scale Large Sheild (Fire Drake Scales give +2 to all elemental fire attacks)
Ring of Memory (+2 to all knowledge checks)
Boots of Silent Striding (+4 to all Move Silently checks)
2 potions

There are 7 mastercraft items, and the Mageblade gets a +1 Weapon as part of his character class so I wont count that as a magical item for treasure purposes. There are 6 characters ( 3rd Priestess, 3rd Mageblade, 4th Rouge, 2 Akashic/1 Cleric, 5th Warmain), so they have plenty of healing. Counting the potions there is enough magic for everyone to have one item. Using 3rd edition spell system, not Monte's. However, thinking about it, Monte's system is actually toned down in power compared to 3rd edition, so that might even be the solution. I like his system better.

 

[Crothian]

Jester's idea is good, as long as you keep plenty of 'good' spells on the lists it doesn't raise a major balance issue. In general though Clerics & Druids need much more toning down than do Wizzes and Sorcs if you want to keep the arcane casters viable.

I'd work with the player so that the spells on the list are some that he would want and use

 

[ThirdWizard]

One thing you're going to find is that a low magic campaign is probably more work than a normal magic campaign. Or you've already found.

Past all these concerns is that CR becomes almost useless in a low magic campaign. You have to be able to look at the PCs and guage their effectiveness individually against most critters, because many of the expected abilities for PCs will be gone. Then if you use lots of NPCs, you've got to spend time statting them out. Its definately a lot of work.

 

[Desdichado]

I prefer the "shock treatment" approach.

"OK, now we'll be running this Forgotten Realms campaign, but we're going to be using the Call of Cthulhu rules for magic. Sure, anyone can learn to cast a spell, no matter the class. Just don't do it very often. Your standard spell probably costs you 1d6 or so Sanity points and does 2 Strength damage, and is equivalent to, oh, a 2nd or 3rd level D&D spell, maybe. You don't just learn them automatically, you have to find some musty old tome like The Book of Eibon or The Necronomicon, take your Sanity damage to read it and learn the spells, and there's no guarantee that any of the spells found therein will be anywhere near as useful as, say Fireball or something like that, though. And don't forget, there's no better way to get the attention of the Great Old Ones or their CR 21 shoggoth minions then casting spells..."

Seriously. It sounds like a joke, but it's not. We're having a blast in a campaign I'm running using those rules. One character said the most recent session was his favorite yet. His character is down to Sanity in the 20s, his Wisdom is down to 3 and his Strength is down to 1. A second character is barely alive after bursting into flame thanks to a writhing mass of eyes that blasted him with a spell. The third character essentially saved all their bacons by dragging them away and running as fast as he could out of town. They have no magical healing or restoration of any kind, they left their guide and all their supplies in town (where the angry mob will nail him to a signpost without his skin as a warning) and said angry mob will soon be scouring the hills for them as they try and hide and heal naturally over the next several days, enough so they can leave the town behind for good and hopefully forget they ever saw it.

They did have a magic sword once. The sword whispered blasphemous obscenities to anyone who tried to wield it (1d6 Sanity damage per round) and had daemonic little mouths that bit your hands and sucked out your life force (1d6 hit point damage as well -- but they needed it to kill the iron lich because it was the only weapon that seriously damaged it, and otherwise they were staring the strong probability of a TPK in the face). Another of their favorite sessions. They couldn't wait to give that to the Inquisition and swore never to touch anything like it again.

Granted, we did have one player who apparently only enjoys playing an Elminster-style mage in a game where you level up every session and never are in any real danger. He seems to have somewhat drifted away from the game, partly due to his schedule, but partly due to the fact that it wasn't his thing, but the rest of us haven't had so much fun in ages.

And at worst, after playing a few sessions of that, even way toned down D&D magic seems like a luxury.

 

[Desdichado]

One thing you're going to find is that a low magic campaign is probably more work than a normal magic campaign. Or you've already found.

Past all these concerns is that CR becomes almost useless in a low magic campaign. You have to be able to look at the PCs and guage their effectiveness individually against most critters, because many of the expected abilities for PCs will be gone. Then if you use lots of NPCs, you've got to spend time statting them out. Its definately a lot of work.

Of course, it's debateable how useful the CR system is anyway, unless you have a party of 4 adventures with the standard array of ability scores, magic items and the four standard classes. I've never found it difficult to run a low magic d20 game because of that. But I don't use the CR system as an absolute yardstick for planning encounters and never have.

 

[Desdichado]

Low magic to high levels works fine for me. I've never been one for the magic item system in 3e. I would NEVER hand out a +3 longsword. It would have some kind of strange ability, too (glows when orcs are nearby to steal an idea). Usually, the items will have something that requires research to discover (identify does not allow you to activate effects, just know about them). The more powerful the item, the more likely it is cursed (something fun and avoidable).

Quite right. In the game mentioned above, the low wisdom character (who hasn't enough self control to keep out of extremely rash danger, much to the amusement of his player, and the others) has another sword. Has had for three or four sessions. He believes it's magical, but he doesn't know what it does yet. I don't know what it does yet, other than serve as a masterwork sword, look kinda funky, and draw attention from certain monsters. All of my characters, at 5th level, have only masterwork weapons, other than that, and the other sword that they couldn't wait to get rid of.

 

[twofalls]

Quite right. In the game mentioned above, the low wisdom character (who hasn't enough self control to keep out of extremely rash danger, much to the amusement of his player, and the others) has another sword. Has had for three or four sessions. He believes it's magical, but he doesn't know what it does yet. I don't know what it does yet, other than serve as a masterwork sword, look kinda funky, and draw attention from certain monsters. All of my characters, at 5th level, have only masterwork weapons, other than that, and the other sword that they couldn't wait to get rid of.

Well, I'm not interested in taking it to that level, but I'm glad your PC's are having fun getting their tails kicked.

I'm looking to make this game a little more politically involved. They are playing a very heavily modified Coin of Power series (modules by Kenzerco) and I have them based out of Geanevue and Loona (great city suppliments by the way). So, in the end they are horse traders and sea merchants... after they save the bay from an evil Sorceress...

At any rate, tonight they are going to be put on trial and have their bacon saved by a friend they rescued months of play time ago. Good deeds rewarded and all that. Oh, and one of the PC's is going to be assasinated... er, well attempted to be anyhow.