D&D 5E Too Few Player Options During Combat?

[Emerikol]

For me, I dislike it when the players just spread out all over the room engaging in their own attacks. I prefer the party need to follow team tactics. So at low levels that means restricting access by the enemy and retreating to defensive positions. I prefer that sort of tactical thinking than picking from a menu of maneuvers.

 

[jmartkdr2]

Well, there are rules for kneecaping though (Trip Attack). It is just that only one class is potentially trained in it, so they are the only ones with a reasonable chance to succeed at such an action.

I don't think shove covers the idea of kneecapping.

Anyone can do a shove attack which can knock prone in 5E. Admittedly it takes an attack, but can still be useful in some cases. Am I missing something?

Probably the difference between "knocking someone over" and "removing their ability to stand at all."

 

[Justice and Rule]

I liked some of what they did with PF2. I think they are feat crazy but they have some good stuff in there.

The advantage of capitalism is that the market will supply the wants (and needs) of people who see things differently. So PF2 is better for some and 5e is better for others. 5e though is highly successful even by WoTC standards. It may be their most successful D&D ever in terms of sales. I think adjusting for time period that 1e still beats it.

I personally am pursuing the OSR game world these days. I'm liking ACKS. So everyone in terms of games can be really happy. Perhaps one day when I have time I'll just write my own game. Why not? Then if/when I don't like it I can just change it. I really think I mostly like the OSR game world but I do like a few things that are modern. Some sort of proficiency/skill system for me is something I like. It's why ACKS beats out C&C for me. It's also why it beats out a bunch of the true retroclones.

Oh, certainly. It's a matter of taste. If you want something crunchier, PF2 is there. If you want something more in the style of 4E, you got 13th Age. There's always OSR for people who want a simpler, classic feel.

Anyone can do a shove attack which can knock prone in 5E. Admittedly it takes an attack, but can still be useful in some cases. Am I missing something?

I assume this is a continuation of the "Kneecap someone with an arrow" discussion, thus the primary difference here is that Trip Attack can technically be done at range, while a Shove cannot. Shove is certainly useful when combined with a Grapple, but it either takes some teamwork or requires a few levels (since you need two attacks to do).

 

[Oofta]

If I learned anything from Skyrim is that once you take arrow an arrow to the knee your only career option is city guard.

Since I have a rule that what PCs can do enemy combatants can also do, that could end a lot of adventuring careers.

 

[Mort]

I don't think shove covers the idea of kneecapping.


Probably the difference between "knocking someone over" and "removing their ability to stand at all."

Since kneecapping is, for the most part, taking someone out of the fight entirely (they're on the ground, unable to move, and likely in such pain as to not be able to really attack):

That sounds like attacking to subdue and getting the enemy to 0 HP without killing them.

If you allow kneecapping before that - well it's open season on high HP humanoids. Why would someone attack someone at full/near full HP directly when kneecaping bypasses that (even at disadvantage or some other penalty, still worth it!)

Presumably, part of HP is being able to avoid incapacitating strikes - until you can't.

 

[billd91]

Since kneecapping is, for the most part, taking someone out of the fight entirely (they're on the ground, unable to move, and likely in such pain as to not be able to really attack):

That sounds like attacking to subdue and getting the enemy to 0 HP without killing them.

If you allow kneecapping before that - well it's open season on high HP humanoids. Why would someone attack someone at full/near full HP directly when kneecaping bypasses that (even at disadvantage or some other penalty, still worth it!)

Presumably, part of HP is being able to avoid incapacitating strikes - until you can't.

The connotation isn't really about subdual without killing, per se - it's about laming someone. Same with hamstringing, an alternate method. It really strikes me as an attack with the ability to impose a movement penalty or condition. And, you're right, if it's not throttled by some kind of cost, it would be open season on high hit point targets with recognizable locomotive limbs (legs, for the most part). Any cost imposed would have to be significant enough that simply trying for the laming attack isn't a no-brainer.

 

[auburn2]

@Filthy Lucre , what additional actions would like to see? Not including class specific actions, the general actions available on your turn are below. That is a lot of options. What else are you looking for?

EDIT: Also, Feats give you a lot more combat options. The Martial Adept feat alone can give any character access to two maneuvers.

Movement:
Move up to your speed
Get up from prone
flank (optional flanking rule in DMG)

Bonus Action:
Cast a spell
Make an attack with an off-hand weapon
Use a class feature

Action:
Attack (class specific but many options here)
Cast a spell (class specific, but many options here)
Cleave through creatures (optional rule in DMG)
Dodge
Dash
Disengage
Disarm (optional rule in DMG)
Dodge
Escape
Grapple (an Attack action)
Help
Hide
Improvised Actions:

• Ability Checks (PHB)
• Advantage and Disadvantage (DMG)
• Damage severity by level (DMG)
• Improvising damage (DMG)
• Object Armor Class (DMG)
• Object Hit Points (DMG)
• Targets in areas of effect (DMG)
• Typical Difficulty Classes (PHB & DMG)
• Mob attacks (DMG)
• Using Ability Scores (DMG)

Make an Ability / Skill Check
Mark (optional rule in DMG)
Overrun (optional rule in DMG)
Ready (an Action)
Search
Shove a creature
Shove Aside (optional rule in DMG)
Tumble (optional rule in DMG)
Use a class feature
Use an object

Additional Optional Rules to review (DMG):
Facing
Flanking
Lingering injuries
Massive Damage
Morale

Additionally, advice on adjudicating actions:
Some advice for Cinematic combat stunts on D&D Beyond
Advice on Improvised Actions from Sly Flourish

This is my point, the rules as they are allow you to do almost anything you want in combat.

If the player wants to do something and he does not know how just ask the DM -

Player: " I want Tulip (halfing) to jump inside the dragons mouth and pour the potion of poison down his throat."

DM: Ok you are right next to his head, I will let you do that as one move plus action, but you need to make a 15DC athletics check to land the jump inside his mouth, then a 10DC SOH to open and pour the potion, a 12DC acrobatics to jump out of his mouth again and not crash when you land, and he gets an opportunity attack on you when you leave his mouth"

Player: Tulip is a Rogue, she is going to disengage as a Bonus action.

DM: Ok I will allow it, go for it.


This is one over the top example but it is easily doable under the current rules set. The DM could have ruled a lot of ways here, he could have made it more than 1 action, he could have disallowed disengage (because of the circumstances) he could have made any part of that string of events easier or harder depending on his judgement, he could have thought of something else I didn't. The point is the current rules are not limiting at all, they are wide open.

 

[dave2008]

@Filthy Lucre, I still haven't heard your response to the post below. What additional actions are looking for, perhaps we can help you.

@Filthy Lucre , what additional actions would like to see? Not including class specific actions, the general actions available on your turn are below. That is a lot of options. What else are you looking for?

EDIT: Also, Feats give you a lot more combat options. The Martial Adept feat alone can give any character access to two maneuvers.

Movement:
Move up to your speed
Get up from prone
flank (optional flanking rule in DMG)

Bonus Action:
Cast a spell
Make an attack with an off-hand weapon
Use a class feature

Action:
Attack (class specific but many options here)
Cast a spell (class specific, but many options here)
Cleave through creatures (optional rule in DMG)
Dodge
Dash
Disengage
Disarm (optional rule in DMG)
Dodge
Escape
Grapple (an Attack action)
Help
Hide
Improvised Actions:

• Ability Checks (PHB)
• Advantage and Disadvantage (DMG)
• Damage severity by level (DMG)
• Improvising damage (DMG)
• Object Armor Class (DMG)
• Object Hit Points (DMG)
• Targets in areas of effect (DMG)
• Typical Difficulty Classes (PHB & DMG)
• Mob attacks (DMG)
• Using Ability Scores (DMG)

Make an Ability / Skill Check
Mark (optional rule in DMG)
Overrun (optional rule in DMG)
Ready (an Action)
Search
Shove a creature
Shove Aside (optional rule in DMG)
Tumble (optional rule in DMG)
Use a class feature
Use an object

Additional Optional Rules to review (DMG):
Facing
Flanking
Lingering injuries
Massive Damage
Morale

Additionally, advice on adjudicating actions:
Some advice for Cinematic combat stunts on D&D Beyond
Advice on Improvised Actions from Sly Flourish

 

[jmartkdr2]

Since kneecapping is, for the most part, taking someone out of the fight entirely (they're on the ground, unable to move, and likely in such pain as to not be able to really attack):

That sounds like attacking to subdue and getting the enemy to 0 HP without killing them.

If you allow kneecapping before that - well it's open season on high HP humanoids. Why would someone attack someone at full/near full HP directly when kneecaping bypasses that (even at disadvantage or some other penalty, still worth it!)

Presumably, part of HP is being able to avoid incapacitating strikes - until you can't.

In all honesty, 'kneecapping' is right on the line where I don't know if it should even be included in 5e. Is it too fiddly? Is it something that should have been included? At the very least, reasonable people can disagree.

On the other hand, I'd be surprised if PF2 doesn't have a rule somewhere for exactly this.

 

[Yardiff]

They do have something long those lines but its not something an unskilled/low lv character can 'just do'.

Critical Specialization Effects
Bow: If the target of the critical hit is adjacent to a surface, it gets stuck to that surface by the missile. The target is immobilized and must spend
an Interact action to attempt a DC 10 Athletics check to pull the missile free; it can’t move from its space until it succeeds. The creature doesn’t become stuck if it is incorporeal, is liquid (like a water elemental or some oozes), or could otherwise escape without effort.