Too many d20 products?

[bushfire]

Too many D20 products?

Not really. Of those "545" products less than a quarter are of any interest to *me* and of those I pick and choose.

I don't do psionics - count those books out
I don't do Kalamar or Scarred Lands - count those books out
Don't do OA - count out all the Rogkan stuff
I own the Wotc splat books, don't really need many more - count those out
Am content with the D&D magic system - another 20 or so books I don't need
I find most sourcebooks to be of no interest to me
I like monster books but don't really need a dozen books about devils/demons/weird dreamland monsters
Have my own campaign world so new settings are not need by me.
Since I play in a homebrew, modules that are tied heavily to a specific setting are of no use to me.
My group is pretty happy playing D&D so I don't need "D20 Papers & Paychecks" or any other genres (did buy CoC though).


I don't buy gaming material unless I have a use for it. I have pretty much weeded down the number of D20 publishers I even look at anymore to a handful. And even of those handful I don't plan on buying everything they publish (with the exception of Necromancer Games!).

You can't look at the current number of D20 products and say "there's too many" because not all products are of interest to, or even of use to, everybody.

 

[Holy Bovine]

I would say the saturation point if reached when these companies don't make any money and go out of business. Since many are still around and publishing it is safe to say that the 'saturation' point hasn't been reached. Personally I like the fact that so much is being produced. Even if you throw out half the stuff as poorly written that's still a lot of stufff to choose from.

No one says you have to buy it all (except maybe WotC via Pokemon )

 

[BiggusGeekus]

No one says you have to buy it all

Sir,

Please don't go putting funny ideas into the heads of the youth of the world. I know you were only joking, but some peope are very impressionable and we wouldn't want to be a bad influence.

Thank you for your time.

BG

 

[SHARK]

Greetings!

Ah, yes...D20 products...it makes me remember the days of long ago when only TSR produced anything, and everything for D&D. Whether you liked the supplements that were put out, or not, *Tough*! What choices did they really give the market?

Now, with the OGL, and D20, everyone can produce stuff. True, there are many products out there on the market that are, at best, mediocre. However, there is also far more variety and just plain *coolness* being produced than any one company, like WOTC, can really keep up with, or even supply. I think it is fantastic that I, as a consumer, have so many choices! This is really unlike anything that has happened before! Here we have many different companies, with many bright people all designing stuff for D&D, and in the long run, cross-polinating other game-designers, who are in turn inspired to create even more new, better stuff. The train of creativity just keeps on running!

Thus, I think the more the merrier! I like lots of products to choose from. It inspires me to be more creative, and offers a broader "creative pallette" for everyone. The weak products, and the weak companies, will be picked out from the herd, and eaten by the wolves of supply and demand. Meanwhile, the good products, the strong companies, will stay up with the herd, running strong. It is those strong companies, probably a solid 7-12 publishers, that will survive and prosper, changing the market as time passes. They will come to define the market, producing consistently quality products, while lesser companies wither and die.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

 

[Desdichado]

Harlequin:
there is too much bland, boring and repetitive well how do i put this nicely...CRAP

So ill stick to official WotC Books and leave it at that...

Ironic. There is so much that WotC produces that is CRAP and there is so much d20 out there that is better...

Not that WotC doesn't have some fine books right now. But the modules are dreadful, the splatbooks are mediocre (at best) and some of the other supplements like Hero Builder's Guidebook, etc. were superfluous.

 

[Pramas]

I would say the saturation point if reached when these companies don't make any money and go out of business. Since many are still around and publishing it is safe to say that the 'saturation' point hasn't been reached.

Well, the interesting thing about RPGs is that a company can lose money for years and still stay in business. This is especially true for those companies that are part-time ventures for the people involved (which is most d20 companies). People have predicted a shake-out like the CCG one in '95, but it won't happen like that. If you blow 100 grand on a CCG and it tanks, you're done. If you put out a 32 page adventure and you only sell 500, you've made enough money back that you can probably print another one.

 

[der_kluge]

I think there are a lot of D20 products, and there are a few bad D20 products, a ton of mediocre products, and a handful of good ones. It's the bellcurve, really.

What bugs me more is that some companies *cough*mongoose*cough* put out half a dozen or more products PER MONTH, and that really has a negative impact on the environment.

I mean, if I have a $20 a month budget for gaming stuff (mine probably isn't even that high), and there are 20 new things per month to choose from, you can bet that I'm only going to be selecting the thing that works for me the best, and is of the highest quality.

If I'm a publisher putting out 5 products a month, 4 of them ain't selling, because the one good one that I did has caused the market to reach their budget for that month. I end up hurting myself in the process.

I'm not implying that I hate Mongoose; quite the contrary, I own some of their stuff, and like it. And they're not alone here, but probably the most extreme example.

Really, D&D is fairly limited in scope. There are people, adventures, monsters, and rules. Once you cover all those, you're scraping the bottom of the barrel. D20 publishers have beat the module market into the ground, and the splat books and magic books, and sea-faring books have all been done. What's left?

Actually, as I think about it now, these 545+ books and supplements that are out now were things that were just WAITING to be written over the past 20 years, but have now only been able to be done. Once all those ideas get put to paper, the market will slow down a lot. That, and there's only so much someone can say about Elves, and +1 swords. Those are my predictions, in any case.

 

[Desdichado]

die_kluge:
I mean, if I have a $20 a month budget for gaming stuff (mine probably isn't even that high), and there are 20 new things per month to choose from, you can bet that I'm only going to be selecting the thing that works for me the best, and is of the highest quality.

If I'm a publisher putting out 5 products a month, 4 of them ain't selling, because the one good one that I did has caused the market to reach their budget for that month. I end up hurting myself in the process.

Yes, but that example is fallacious. You are assuming that you as a customer represent THE customer in the market. On average, you'd expect that someone else finds one of the other five to be their preferred product. Of course, that's a simplification too: certainly some products are going to bit that "sweet spot" in demand more than others. But just because you only pick up one product certainly doesn't mean that everyone else is picking up just that same product.

For that matter, your example only works if everyone has the same gaming budget as you. In general, if a company can get lots of products out the door, and they're "good enough" to be bought, then that's a good thing. That they should somehow limit themselves is a concept that I don't understand. For what purpose?

 

[der_kluge]

[BFor that matter, your example only works if everyone has the same gaming budget as you. In general, if a company can get lots of products out the door, and they're "good enough" to be bought, then that's a good thing. That they should somehow limit themselves is a concept that I don't understand. For what purpose? [/B]

The purpose is to not create a glut in the market, which was the point of this thread.

 

[Razuur]

Where are all of these low products that people keep mentioning? I have seen very few low quality items.

There are a couple of course, but amny fit into the average category, which doesn't make them bad.
They just contain a some usefuls, and some not. There are some real good supplements, and a few great supplements.

In the end, IMHO, the typical average product is no worse that your typical 2E Rp item for content.

I think a lot of people pigeonhole a product as crap or low quality if it just doesn't mesh with my style or game.
There are several products which just don't fit the type of stories that I want to tell, that just does not make them crap, it just makes them valuable to someone else.

What do I think of prices, as a consumer (because I am not a publisher)?

Right now, I think that most D20 stuff is priced about right, from my income perspective. There are some D20 hardcovers that would be better as softcovers. There are some softcovers that could get combined into one big hardcover. I do think that ones income pays a big part of it. Perspective too. I too have seen a person eat out, go to a movie, and then buy a DVD only to complain that a RPG hardcover is $30. I look at them like WTF? the movie is gone, the meal is gone, your going to watch that DVD what 10 times in the next 10 years? How many hundreds of hours will you be gaming?

I too am more picky, finding myself risking less than I did when D20 exploded. Risking less is not spending less, though. I just want to make sure I spend my money the most wisely. But that risk, comibined with online reviews has helped me narrow down the "quality cats" like Kenzer. For the quality cats, I am more than willing to fork over more cash to support designers more. That is a win win situation. They become more stable and can grow even better with time, while I get better product. I am less apt to spend more for "risks" products of unsure value. I think that if a publisher proves their worth to me, or the web is hit with great reviews of their product, I will be willing to dip my toes in their water so to speak. I still do make the occassional risky buy, but I am cautious. It is buying things like the Kalamar CS that make me want to risk buying more. I knew nothing about it, and now I own everything Kalamar they make because they are all such good quality. I find successful risks make me ignore far more unsuccessful risks in the hope of another discovery.

Interestingly enough, I am less apt to buy WOTC because of my faith that they have a secure audience. As a matter of fact, I can't even remember the last WOTC thing I bought... Oh yeah, Wheel of Time: Prophecies and CoC. They only thing in my WOTC sights is Book of Vile Darkness. EVERYTHING else on order at my game shop is independant d20 supplements (prolly $100 $150 worth a month at least). That must make me atypical though, because these boards are filled with people screaming about they buy only WOTC and maybe one or two extras. I am the opposite. If that is true, how can the D20 industry be thriving though? And I think it is...

I do know that I buy no (except Kalamar) adventures. I want rules, settings, crunchies, myths, legends, classes, ideas. I will pay good money for good matrial in this dept.

In the end.... I WILL pay more for a gaming materials if they are great quality and useful. I guess Mr. Kenzer and Mr. Dancey are right, IMHO. If that means I buy less actual product, then the product I buy should be extremely useful!

Razuur