Too Many Monster Manuals?

[Sejs]

I'd rather spend cash on something a PC could use, and also use it for enemy NPCs.

Thoughts?

Then by all means don't buy it.

I imagine that if sales of monster books drops off enough due to a broad lack of interest, they will stop making them.

The problem is that the 'do we NEED another monster book' argument also gets applied to ... pretty much everything else. Do we NEED another alternative magic system? Do we NEED another book that focuses on certain classes? Do we NEED another ... etc, etc.

 

[ivocaliban]

I thought that MM2 and Fiend Folio were decent enough. I haven't cared for the other WOTC MMs that followed. However, there are people that liked them so why shouldn't they have them available.

I agree. I own MM1, MM2, and the Fiend Folio. Although the MM1 is still the book I turn to about 75% of the time, there are some great things in the other two volumes. I browsed the books that followed, but each one seemed to have fewer and fewer useful creatures and more and more variations on a theme (which I can pretty much do myself). MMs 3-4 (and I'm assuming 5 won't be that much different) could probably be boiled down into one really great book, but three additional volumes are just unnecessary in my games.

I could probably do without about half of what's in the MM2 and the Fiend Folio as well, quite frankly, but with each new MM I see less and less that inspires me or that I find useful. I do, however, have the 3.5 updated .pdf of Necromancer Games' Tome of Horrors and it sees quite a bit of use. Considering the massive amounts of monsters and templates found in books that aren't actually MMs (Manual of the Planes, Book of Vile Darkness, Draconomicon, Libris Mortis, etc.) the last thing I need right now is another book filled with Navel Lint Golems and Purplespawn Wigglebottoms.

But that's just me.

 

[Razz]

I'd like to see a 3.5 update of those books, too.

While I agree MM2 could use a 3.5 makeover similar in scope to the makeover that MMI got, Fiend Folio I think is fine as is. Mainly because the design and development for those creatures were already designed with 3.5 in mind. The update booklet download only listed their 3.5 damage reductions, since the book was released 3 months before the 3.5 books arrived.

WotC stated that MMI received the most attention to detail, playtesting, and patches so that it could be perfect for the 3.5 system. One major development they performed was that they didn't expect characters at high levels to be so darn powerful, and a lot of their high CR creatures were too underpowered for their CR. MMI got overhauled with nearly all its creatures, and Fiend Folio's creatures were already designed with 3.5 in mind. It was MM2 that got the real shaft. Though they did do a 3.5 update download, it's not a real revision of the creatures. Just a 3.5 fix to make them playable and to help DMs avoid all the guesswork.

Though, I do find it unprofessional to give MMI so much care and precisions and not give MM2 the same deal. I really do hope one day they do revise MM2's creatures like they did MMI. I'd definitely purchase a reprint of MM2 if they gave it an overhaul like they did MMI.

 

[ivocaliban]

While I agree MM2 could use a 3.5 makeover similar in scope to the makeover that MMI got, Fiend Folio I think is fine as is. Mainly because the design and development for those creatures were already designed with 3.5 in mind. The update booklet download only listed their 3.5 damage reductions, since the book was released 3 months before the 3.5 books arrived.

WotC stated that MMI received the most attention to detail, playtesting, and patches so that it could be perfect for the 3.5 system. One major development they performed was that they didn't expect characters at high levels to be so darn powerful, and a lot of their high CR creatures were too underpowered for their CR. MMI got overhauled with nearly all its creatures, and Fiend Folio's creatures were already designed with 3.5 in mind. It was MM2 that got the real shaft. Though they did do a 3.5 update download, it's not a real revision of the creatures. Just a 3.5 fix to make them playable and to help DMs avoid all the guesswork.

Though, I do find it unprofessional to give MMI so much care and precisions and not give MM2 the same deal. I really do hope one day they do revise MM2's creatures like they did MMI. I'd definitely purchase a reprint of MM2 if they gave it an overhaul like they did MMI.

Seconded. MM2 has some great creatures and concepts in it, but it's one of the books that suffers the most from the 3.5 update. I'd snatch up a revision in a heartbeat.

 

[Pants]

I'm surprised you folks haven't realized it, yet.

I've realized that the book is a hodge-podge of cool ideas executed horribly, really stupid ideas, and converted creatures converted, well, averagely.

Fiend Folio is so much better it's not even funny, even if a lot of the fiends still need the 3.5 makeover.

Although, if WotC decided to release a 3.5 MMII, I'd most likely buy it, simply because the good ideas that it does have are pretty good, but even then, it would be pretty low on my list of 'good monster books.'

Bone Ooze

What's so inspiring about this? If I were to pick one of the three high-CR oozes from this book to be inspired by, it'd be the teratomorph.

Chaos Roc

I'm not really sure what the point of this creature is supposed to be. It's a roc... but it shoots light! Whoopie, make a template.

Death Knight (template)

Kind of a lame version of a classic monster. Needs some work to be useful and to bring it back to its roots.

Demon
Devil

Inspiring, though they all need some work, as with all 3.0 fiends.

Cloud Ray
Dinosaur
Dire Animal
Firbolg
Leviathan
Tauric (template)
Titanic (template)

Meh

Half-Golem (template)

Neat idea, hate how it was done.

Giants (Ocean, Forest, Sun, Mountain)

The Mountain Giant is one of the most egregious examples of horrid CR inflation in the book. It's what, CR 26, and it doesn't have any DR or SR.

Neogi

Lords of Madness has them now.

Phoenix

Over CR-ed, though it's debatable. Still kinda nifty.

Yugoloth

Crappy Conversions, like all 3e Yugo conversions. The fact that the book has crappy conversions is not a plus even if every other conversion sucks.

My list of cool MMII monsters:

Avolakia - cool but, desperately needs a makeover!
Dark Tentacles
Dread Guard - Used several times
Gem Dragons
Hook Horror
Julajimus - Julajimus + Stone Idol Template = instant guardian for a Temple of Demogorgon!
Nimblewright - Used many, many times
Rogue Eidolon
Runic Guardian - Used once
Spawn of Kyuss
Twig Blight

There were plenty of others in there that were conversions of past favorites from old editions.

Most of which were done poorly, even by 3.0 standards.

Though, I do find it unprofessional to give MMI so much care and precisions and not give MM2 the same deal.

Or any of their other books.

 

[Shade]

I can never have too many monster manuals. As far as actually using the creatures, heck yeah.

I'd estimate that I've used 75% of the creatures in the MM, 80% of the FF (my favorite monster book), 50-60% of MMII, half of Monsters of Faerun, 20% of MMIII, most of the non-unique critters in the Fiendish Codices, most of Lords of Madness, a sizable chunk of Draconomicon, about 25% of Libris Mortis, and numerous creatures from Dragon and Dungeon magazines.

On the non-official side, I've used many monsters from Tome of Horrors and the Creature Collection series, and have used some monsters from Denizens of Avadnu and Legends of Avadnu.

I say keep 'em coming. The only one I didn't buy was MMIV, because it didn't suit my tastes. It had nothing to do with having too many monsters.

 

[Voadam]

We don't need any monster books including the MM, you could do a fine campaign with just classed PH race adversaries (well for summon monster spells and familiars the srd or MM are still necessary).

Many like having new monster books though. Many like having new challenges their players have not heard about or seen before. Many like just reading about new monsters, it adds to the fantasy world atmosphere. Some fill specific campaign need niches, for instance MMII has lots of high CR monsters ready to go that are not well covered in the original MM, FFG's Necromantic Lore and Elemental Lore provide lots of undead and elemental type creatures specifically, and EN Publishing's critter series and XRP's Monster Geographica series flesh out options for specific terrain types.

So while I don't need any monster manuals (I find I use the srd more than any monster book including the MM) I have a ton (dozens and dozens for d20) and am interested in getting more.