Too much magic in DnD - lets do something about it !

[bramadan]

My own ideas so far are following (mind you those are somewhat drastic, I am talking entirely different d20 game here):

-All spell-casting classes are prestige classes with requirements that make them possible only at arround level 5.

-There is a variety of prestige spell-casters but if they are spell-casters they are *primarily* spell casters. People who specialize in non spell casting things do not get spells. (Assasins, Bards, Temple Raiders etc...)

-Each spellcasting class gets very focused spell-list (ie: Necromancers can only do Necromancy etc..) but they also get some extra feats and wierd skills (in the fashion of Mongoose Necromancers say). One good thing about d20 is that there is so many spells arround in various supplements to choose from.

-Material components are mostly wierd and unusual things, not something you get in bulk. Again, things like "tongue of the sentient creature", "skull of an infant" and so on (from the same source) spring to mind.

-In general spells have significantly higher casting time then what is written but, depending on their class, casters can try to find shortcuts and face possible consequences.

-I am not sure but I think that if we do this right we can get rid of the memorization and spells per day limitations.

-Level progression is not linear but rather quadratic. This can be achieved by making the XP awards non dependant of level. Consequence is that characters go through levels slower, particularily at higher levels. Good thing about this is that it makes for longer campaigns and also hinders the power inflation.

-Scholar class needs to be devised (I have a basic draft). It would serve as a primary feeder into the spell-casting prestige classes but also as the alchemist/herbalist/healer. Idea is for it to be a cerebral equivalent of rogue 8sp/level but different skill selection and class features. Maybe even a few such classes would be in order, or the rules for making them. This would adress the problem of the Diplomat from the other thread. Trick would be to give them enough cool stuff to make them interesting and playable on lower levels. I do not think that they should necessarily be as good as, say the fighters, in combat but should still be viable thing to play.

-I have no clue as to what to do with priests. I am thinking that again begining priest should not be able to cast anything. Some sort of piety acumulation system where character needs to acumulate certain ammount of "saintlyness" points before he can multiclass into a "miracle-worker" prestige class might be possible. I am still thinking about it.

-Grim and Gritty combat rules should be used. This alone should balance mages to large extent. Sure it is very hard to make spell go off but when it does, it is deadly...

Those are just a few ideas, more later...

And of course, economy needs to make more sense as in S'mons games....

 

[Trellian]

I wanted to scream when the forgotten realms book came out and gave both drizzt do'urden and artimus entreri spells. .

That doesn't mean they use them though. I've read every Salvatore novel published, and I have yet to see any of them use magic. But it would be crazy not to give Drizzt levels in ranger, and it would be crazy not to give Artemis levels in Assassin.
So, technically they have spells, but the moment I see Bob allowing Drizzt or Artemis to cast a spell..I'm closing the book....

 

[S'mon]

That doesn't mean they use them though. I've read every Salvatore novel published, and I have yet to see any of them use magic. But it would be crazy not to give Drizzt levels in ranger, and it would be crazy not to give Artemis levels in Assassin.
So, technically they have spells, but the moment I see Bob allowing Drizzt or Artemis to cast a spell..I'm closing the book....

Artemis is a classic 1st ed Fighter-Assassin.

Given that Driz'zt has drow spell abilities anyway I see no harm in letting him do minor Ranger spells.

Re assassins - for a low-magic game, an assassin class similar to 1e might be good, although the Rogue should be tweakable - poison use at 1st level would be a start.

 

[mmadsen]

Reading this boards over last several months I have found out that there exists a substantial minority of DM's who have simmilar attitude to DnD and d20 to mine. This attitude is that it is a great system but that when it comes to fantasy it tends to lend itself to the somewhat peculiar, video-gamish, "magic as technology" feel.

Yes, but I think you could've found a more diplomatic way to put it than "Too much magic in DnD - lets do something about it!"

Those of us who are concerned about this hope that it is possible to apply house rules in such a way as to force DnD into being more "believable" or "traditional" in a sense of classical myth and fantasy.

I think you need to nail down what you mean by "traditional fantasy". D&D certainly diverges from classical myth and traditional fantasy, but the level of magic might not be the most important difference.

Many other people have claimed and probably rightfully so that this magic laden atmosphere is a feature of DnD, that DnD was built with that particular feel in mind and that sufficient tweeking of house rules to arrest that feel will hopelessly disjoint some of the fundamantal premises of the game. CR ratings and balance between the classes are frequently cited as the examples.

I find this terrible worry about CRs odd. If you reduce the amount of magical treasure (usable by Fighters, etc.) and the power of spellcasters, the classes remain roughly balanced. If you reduce the appearance of magical monsters and/or their magical power, they too remain balanced. Sure, discuss the issues, but don't expect the whole house of cards to come down because Wands of Fireballs don't show up in the Orcs' treasure chest.

While I believe that this might be a case for DnD as such I am certain that it does not hold for d20 system at large. System that seems to be able to handle such a variety of genres from Star Wars and Space Opera through post-apocaliptic games to superhero games should certainly be able to accomodate the low-magic, grim and gritty, fantasy.

I think the real challenge is devising a low-magic ruleset that can still leverage most of the existing D&D material.

I am sure each of us who share this concern has found a number of things that need changing in DnD and have devised home solutions for those. What I am calling for is a sort of messageboard workshop where we can identify all the problems compare solutiuons and possibly work towards what I think should definitively be made: seriously low-magic d20 fantasy game.

I've got plenty of suggestions, and your list matches much of what I've presented in the past.

It seems natural to me that the spellcasting classes be Prestige Classes, and that each semi-spellcasting class (e.g. Ranger, Paladin) should be split into a mundane class (e.g. Woodsman, Templar) and a spellcasting Prestige Class (e.g. Druid, Cleric).

The one, simple change of restricting spellcasters to higher levels obviously changes the game quite a bit with very, very little changed mechanically. In addition to simply restricting magic to higher levels, it also improves the credibility of spellcasters by making Wizards true scholars who only mastered the mystic arts after years of study (i.e. four or five levels of Expert), by making Druids and Bards experts in their "mundane" skills (e.g. Wilderness Lore and Perform) before they're casting spells supposedly based on their expertise, etc.

For a Scholar class, all you really need to do is to tweak the Expert a bit: Wizard Hit Dice, BAB, and Saves, 8 Skill Points/Level and a flexible Skill list, Skill Focus (and/or other scholarly Feats on a Bonus Feat list) every other level. If you make some of the scholarly skills more useful in game, this could be quite fun, e.g. allow Knowledge (Arcana) to identify magic items, allow Healing to restore more Hit Points, allow Knowledge (History) to recall where the buried dwarven kingdom placed secret doors, etc.

I strongly agree with limited-scope spell lists and exotic material components too. I also like slower casting. Additionally, I feel strongly that "N spells per day" does not capture a magical feel, and that it leads to logical consequences that make little sense. If spellcasting doesn't have a more serious cost than "Oh, you can only be invisible a few times per day," then...well, think about it.

Even without serious changes to the magic system though, you can go a long, long way by simply restricting and rearranging the spell lists. What kind of spell list has Bestow Curse as a 4th-level spell (of dubious utility and little flavor) but has Magic Missile and Color Spray as 1st-level spells? Why is it so hard to curse (or polymorph) someone when that's a staple of classic myth and fairy tales?

 

[Rashak Mani]

BAHM - BOTHERED ABOUT HIGH MAGIC !!!

Make a BADD - Bothered about Disposable Dragons sister association. Many would join.

In general I agree with you... sometimes alot of magic can be fun and nice... but most of the time this looks like Earthdawn without the background and story to handle it. Earthdawn made it part of the world... D&D makes it seem out of place all this magic.

Good Luck with BAHM

 

[LostSoul]

Along with some of the other changes mentioned, I think the Hit Point mechanic might need some work. A Fighter with 100 hit points can jump off a cliff and hit the ground running.

I also think that magic should be reworked so it becomes more of a plot device and less of a game mechanic.

 

[hong]

Re: Re: Too much magic in DnD - lets do something about it !

I've got plenty of suggestions, and your list matches much of what I've presented in the past.

It seems natural to me that the spellcasting classes be Prestige Classes, and that each semi-spellcasting class (e.g. Ranger, Paladin) should be split into a mundane class (e.g. Woodsman, Templar) and a spellcasting Prestige Class (e.g. Druid, Cleric).

There's at least one very good reason for not restricting spellcasting to high levels: you cannot do a dungeon crawl without at least a party medic, unless you want to keep running back to town and healing up after each encounter. Having some portable artillery also comes in handy.

There's another very good reason for not restricting spellcasting to high levels: many people _like_ playing spellcasters. They like the idea of being able to use magic and create wondrous effects that aren't possible in humdrum reality.

 

[hong]

One way to avoid the "magic as technology" feel might be to use the rules in Magic of Rokugan (AEG) for creating magic items. Basically, magic items in Rokugan, with the exception of one-use stuff like potions and wands, get their power from the awakened spirits that inhabit them. While it's possible for spellcasters to intentionally awaken an item, it's also possible for an item, if carried long enough by a character with a powerful soul or connection to the spirit world, to be spontaneously awakened.

This lets PCs keep the toys to which they're accustomed, and is a better solution than simply banning or cutting down on magic items. It also helps to avoid the feeling that items are nothing more than tools, which is basically where the "magic as technology" feel comes from.

 

[Psion]

One way to avoid the "magic as technology" feel might be to use the rules in Magic of Rokugan (AEG) for creating magic items.
...
This lets PCs keep the toys to which they're accustomed, and is a better solution than simply banning or cutting down on magic items. It also helps to avoid the feeling that items are nothing more than tools, which is basically where the "magic as technology" feel comes from.

Also, it lets you give the PCs the items you want and prevent players from getting items just because they cut the owner down, thus cutting down on the looting mentality.

That said, I don't think there is "too much magic in D&D." There may be too much magic for the game you want to run, but that's your bag. The system is designed with the assumption on magic, so if you want to change it, you have some tweaking to do.

Speaking of which,

Shouldn't this be in house rules?!

 

[LordMelkor{Talos}]

Suggestions:

- Spellcraft checks for casting spells,
-Casting spells doing subdual damage, let`s say 2 points per spell level, it may eliminate need for spells a day( Wolfspider`s idea)
-spellcasting prestige classes would give access to 6th level spells at max
-Grim and Gritty combat rules would be apreciated
-a system for ritual magic, maybe time/number of participants affects spell level?
-everything else that Bramadan suggested, I would really like to see your drafts!

Here is an Expert PC Class by Wolfspider for his Middle Earth D20 Project, I find it underpowered before 10th level, then fine:

Expert

Allegiance: Any
Hit Die: d6
1st level Skill Points: (8 + Int modifier) x 4
Higher level Skill Points: 8 + Int modifier
Class Skills: The expert can choose any ten skills to be class skills. Up to two of these skills can be skills exclusive to other classes.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: The expert is proficient in the use of all simple weapons and with light armor but not shields.

Table: The Expert
Base
NPC Attack Fort Ref Will Defense
Level Bonus Save Save Save Bonus
----- ------ ---- ---- ---- ----
1st +0 +0 +0 +2 +2
2nd +1 +0 +0 +3 +2
3rd +2 +1 +1 +3 +3
4th +3 +1 +1 +4 +3
5th +3 +1 +1 +4 +3
6th +4 +2 +2 +5 +4
7th +5 +2 +2 +5 +4
8th +6/+1 +2 +2 +6 +4
9th +6/+1 +3 +3 +6 +5
10th +7/+2 +3 +3 +7 +5
11th +8/+3 +3 +3 +7 +5
12th +9/+4 +4 +4 +8 +6
13th +9/+4 +4 +4 +8 +6
14th +10/+5 +4 +4 +9 +6
15th +11/+6/+1 +5 +5 +9 +7
16th +12/+7/+2 +5 +5 +10 +7
17th +12/+7/+2 +5 +5 +10 +7
18th +13/+8/+3 +6 +6 +11 +8
19th +14/+9/+4 +6 +6 +11 +8
20th +15/+10/+5 +6 +6 +12 +8

Bonus feats: At 1st level, the expert gets a bonus feat in addition to the feat that any 1st-level character gets and the bonus feat granted to some Men and to Hobbits. The expert gains an additional bonus feat at 2nd level and every two levels thereafter (4th, 6th, 8th, etc.). The bonus feat can be Skill Focus or it can be any other feat that adds to skills as long as the feat is not a background feat that must be taken at 1st level. As usual, the Skill Focus feat can only be applied once to a particular skill, although other bonus feats taken can add to that skill normally.

Expert Knowledge: An expert must choose a specialty at 1st level, such as Expert (Sailor), Expert (Smith), or Expert (Magician). All of the character’s skills will generally focus around this one area of expertise. In addition, the expert may make a special expert knowledge check with a bonus equal to his or her level + Intelligence modifier to see whether the character knows some relevant information about his or her speciality. This check will not reveal the powers of a magic item but may give a hint as to its general function. The expert may take 10 or take 20 on this check, if the character has access to the appropriate research materials and other resources. The DM will determine the Difficulty Class of the check by referring to the table below.

DC Type of Knowledge
-- -----------------
10 Common
20 Uncommon
25 Obscure
30 Extremely obscure

Special Abilities: On achieving 10th level and every three levels thereafter (13th, 16th, and 19th), an expert chooses a special ability from among the following:

 Skill Mastery: The expert selects a number of skills equal to 3 + Intelligence modifier. When making a skill check with one of these skills, the expert may take 10 even if stress and distractions would normally prevent the expert from doing so. The expert may gain this special ability multiple times, selecting additional skills for it to apply to each time.
 Instant Mastery: The expert gains 4 ranks of a skill in which he or she has no ranks. The expert may gain this special ability multiple times, selecting a new skill with no ranks for it to apply to each time.
 Feat: The expert gains a new feat. The character must have all the requirements for the feat in order to choose this special ability.
 Upgrade skill: The expert may choose two non-Magical cross-class skills and upgrade them to class skills.
 New class skill: The expert may choose a new skill as a class skill.