Too much magic in DnD - lets do something about it !
- Thread starter bramadan
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A good idea! Count me in.
First, I would second nharwell and use hit points/vitality points for damage. This allows you to mitigate the effects of lower healing powers.
I implement many of these ideas in my campaign already. I adapted the Star Wars RPG Force powers system which has magic users powering spells with their own vitality points--the more spells they cast, the more vulnerable they are.
The ability to cast spells requires the following: a "magical awakening feat," followed by a feat allowing one to cast spells of a particular school, followed by the expenditure of skill points in one of four skills per school. Each rank allows for the creation of one particular effect (which would be a particular spell). I use a more complicated formula involving scaling and so on, but you could simply have vitality cost equal spell level, or increase at a higher rate if you want powerful spells to be even rarer. There is a scholar class that makes an ideal wizard type.
The creation of magic items involves a sacrifice of vitality. For one-use items, it is not a permanent loss, but for anything more powerful someone needs to give up some vitality points forever. Therefore, most magic items are either very minor or very powerful (the last act of an aging magician being to channel remaining life energy into some legacy device).
I also employ a corruption mechanic similar to the Force rules. Any time someone uses magic that involves death energies (such as most necromancy spells) or the use of magic to directly harm someone or dominate their will, there is a chance for corruption. Too much corruption results in a gradual turning to selfishness, cruelty, and madness.
In the campaign, magic-users are viewed with fear and suspicion becuase so many of them go crazy. It's a feel I like, and I use the mechanics to reinforce it.
Count me in on any attempt to hash out some well-tested set of rules for low magic worlds.
First, I would second nharwell and use hit points/vitality points for damage. This allows you to mitigate the effects of lower healing powers.
I implement many of these ideas in my campaign already. I adapted the Star Wars RPG Force powers system which has magic users powering spells with their own vitality points--the more spells they cast, the more vulnerable they are.
The ability to cast spells requires the following: a "magical awakening feat," followed by a feat allowing one to cast spells of a particular school, followed by the expenditure of skill points in one of four skills per school. Each rank allows for the creation of one particular effect (which would be a particular spell). I use a more complicated formula involving scaling and so on, but you could simply have vitality cost equal spell level, or increase at a higher rate if you want powerful spells to be even rarer. There is a scholar class that makes an ideal wizard type.
The creation of magic items involves a sacrifice of vitality. For one-use items, it is not a permanent loss, but for anything more powerful someone needs to give up some vitality points forever. Therefore, most magic items are either very minor or very powerful (the last act of an aging magician being to channel remaining life energy into some legacy device).
I also employ a corruption mechanic similar to the Force rules. Any time someone uses magic that involves death energies (such as most necromancy spells) or the use of magic to directly harm someone or dominate their will, there is a chance for corruption. Too much corruption results in a gradual turning to selfishness, cruelty, and madness.
In the campaign, magic-users are viewed with fear and suspicion becuase so many of them go crazy. It's a feel I like, and I use the mechanics to reinforce it.
Count me in on any attempt to hash out some well-tested set of rules for low magic worlds.
Tonguez
A suffusion of yellow
REALLY good Herbs, Potions and specialist healers would do the trick I think.
Okay IMC I increase CRs by an abitary +2, use the Grim&gritty HP modified by size rule for Big monsters (like Dragons) - so PCs don't just slay dragons because they can -, have very few powerful magic items, use 'mundane' alchemy-pseudoscience (strength potions work), don't have ressurection but do give characters hero points (which having now read Spycraft lite I will replace with Action dice) and NPC allies/associates and patrons
In terms of Magic
1. Maximum Spell level is level 5. Higher levels requires the 'Archmage' Feat
2 Spell recovery at 1 day per level (ie it takes 5 days to
recover 'from' a 5th level spell before it can be used again)
3. Arcane Spells require a Spellcraft Check @ DC 15+ (spell level*2)
4. Spellcasting Fatigue - a failed Spellcraft check results in -1xspell level temporary Con damage. A Fort check is required to 'heal' this fatigue or it becomes permanent (ie using spells results in a weakening of the physical body)
5. Cleric/Paladin - Divine Spells are replaced by a specific set of Prayers and Holy Words (eg Voice of Authority gives ability to Command others (including Undead), Prayer of Consecration provides 'Pritection from', Prayer of Healing
6. Bards have no spells (but do have extended song/dance abilities)
7. Druids - are Shaman who call spirits (oUtsiders) only
9 No Magic Item Creation Feats - all Magic items are unique legendary items created by 'the gods' or ancient heroes
ps now I've heard this Rokugan rule I might just use it
- this one
If I were inspired to try a low magic world, here's what I'd say
- Edit the spell list and get rid of the flashy spells. No fireballs or lightning bolts. Maybe dump evocation altogether.
- Beef up the Expert and Aristocrat classes to make them more suitable to PCs - maybe some bonus feats.
- Use Monty's Ranger
- Edit Paladin and Bard as well, to either reduce or eliminate all spellcasting - maybe just move the bard's progression up
- No PC may have a spellcasting level (cleric, druid, wizard, sorcerer) higher than any other level, and they MUST multiclass.
To hazard a guess, creatures who have powerful magical abilities, and especially damage resistance, should be increasing thier CR by +1 or +2, maybe more for powerful creatures.
- Treasure needs to be reduced. You don't want the 2e situation where if the DM gives out default treasure you can buy anything available by fifth level.
- Edit the spell list and get rid of the flashy spells. No fireballs or lightning bolts. Maybe dump evocation altogether.
- Beef up the Expert and Aristocrat classes to make them more suitable to PCs - maybe some bonus feats.
- Use Monty's Ranger
- Edit Paladin and Bard as well, to either reduce or eliminate all spellcasting - maybe just move the bard's progression up
- No PC may have a spellcasting level (cleric, druid, wizard, sorcerer) higher than any other level, and they MUST multiclass.
To hazard a guess, creatures who have powerful magical abilities, and especially damage resistance, should be increasing thier CR by +1 or +2, maybe more for powerful creatures.
- Treasure needs to be reduced. You don't want the 2e situation where if the DM gives out default treasure you can buy anything available by fifth level.
Dougal DeKree
First Post
makes me wonder...
Hello all,
just want to point a thing out: as Hong said, some people just _like_ to play spell casters, since that is their reason to play a FANTASY game, doing things usually not possible in RL. So that is what D&D tries to do. Now if you make it and have the whole D&D tweaked, we can all be sure, that some time later we will have a thread at the boards stating, that there is too little magic in D&D. PLEASE take this to house rules. With the according house-rule it is possible to play a low-magic game, as LostSoul mentioned it. Deciding whether you want more or less magic is up to the individual DM alone. The basic rules are just that, basic. tweak em if you like, but don't try to object your individual preferred settings to the overall mass of DM's. No offense meant, just wanted to add my view.
Dougal DeKree, Gnomish Illusionist and Full-time-magicuser.
LostSoul said:
Hello all,
just want to point a thing out: as Hong said, some people just _like_ to play spell casters, since that is their reason to play a FANTASY game, doing things usually not possible in RL. So that is what D&D tries to do. Now if you make it and have the whole D&D tweaked, we can all be sure, that some time later we will have a thread at the boards stating, that there is too little magic in D&D. PLEASE take this to house rules. With the according house-rule it is possible to play a low-magic game, as LostSoul mentioned it. Deciding whether you want more or less magic is up to the individual DM alone. The basic rules are just that, basic. tweak em if you like, but don't try to object your individual preferred settings to the overall mass of DM's. No offense meant, just wanted to add my view.
Dougal DeKree, Gnomish Illusionist and Full-time-magicuser.
Last edited:
SableWyvern
Hero
Re: Re: Re: Too much magic in DnD - lets do something about it !
Except that this thread is obviously not directed at people who like playing spellcasters in magic-rich settings.
While I have no interest in running a d&d campaign along the lines of what is presented in this thread, I don't see the point presenting my reasoning in a thread dedicated to doing the opposite to me.
I'm sure there will be more people taking a similar line to hong and Dougie DeKree. In defense of the thread, I'd like to point out that this is not about arguing the merits of low-magic. It presupposes a desire for low-magic.
So guys, go for it and create a heap of rules I will never, ever contemplate using, with my blessing.
hong said:
Except that this thread is obviously not directed at people who like playing spellcasters in magic-rich settings.
While I have no interest in running a d&d campaign along the lines of what is presented in this thread, I don't see the point presenting my reasoning in a thread dedicated to doing the opposite to me.
I'm sure there will be more people taking a similar line to hong and Dougie DeKree. In defense of the thread, I'd like to point out that this is not about arguing the merits of low-magic. It presupposes a desire for low-magic.
So guys, go for it and create a heap of rules I will never, ever contemplate using, with my blessing.
Davelozzi
Explorer
Re: makes me wonder...
Dougal, don't sweat it. We're trying to come up with a variant D20 low magic system, we're not marching on WotC headquarters demanding that they change the core books. We're trying to play a game that way we invision, we're not trying to force the rest of the DMs of the world to do the same.
Incidentally, Bramadan, it might be worth changing the name of this thread slightly. It seems to be drawing in people who think that some sort of attack on the established rulest of D&D is going on, which of course is not the case.
Dougal DeKree said:
Dougal, don't sweat it. We're trying to come up with a variant D20 low magic system, we're not marching on WotC headquarters demanding that they change the core books. We're trying to play a game that way we invision, we're not trying to force the rest of the DMs of the world to do the same.
Incidentally, Bramadan, it might be worth changing the name of this thread slightly. It seems to be drawing in people who think that some sort of attack on the established rulest of D&D is going on, which of course is not the case.
Make magic magical!
Just wanted to make a few points:
I think the reason some of us would like to lighten the magic level of D&D is to magic more, uh, "magical".
In D&D, magic is not mysterious. Look: a fireball! BOR-ING! There aren't that many strange curses or bizarre enchantments. The commonly used spells are "lock-and-load" video game spells and few other "old stand-bys". Everyone uses them. Everyone knows exactly their effect. I don't like it.
To continue in the same vein, magic is not rare. The average fighter has a magic sword by 5th level. 2/3 of the core classes can cast spells!
I think that magic in D&D needs to be more rare and mysterious. Not all the time. Not in everyone's campaign. Not even in all my campaigns. But a variant rules set to support such changes would be nice.
Just wanted to make a few points:
I think the reason some of us would like to lighten the magic level of D&D is to magic more, uh, "magical".
In D&D, magic is not mysterious. Look: a fireball! BOR-ING! There aren't that many strange curses or bizarre enchantments. The commonly used spells are "lock-and-load" video game spells and few other "old stand-bys". Everyone uses them. Everyone knows exactly their effect. I don't like it.
To continue in the same vein, magic is not rare. The average fighter has a magic sword by 5th level. 2/3 of the core classes can cast spells!
I think that magic in D&D needs to be more rare and mysterious. Not all the time. Not in everyone's campaign. Not even in all my campaigns. But a variant rules set to support such changes would be nice.
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