Too much magic in DnD - lets do something about it !

[Bastoche]

I haven't carefully read all the posts. So excuse me if I repeat things that were already said.

First I have this thing to say. I think it's a little off the mark to say that standard 3E D&D is diablo-like. If it's Diablo-like, I say that it's because the DM don't handle the game very well. We play by the book, respecting the magic item value progression per level as suggested in the DMG and I've never felt we were playing diablo. Quite the opposite. We played 2E and 1E long enough to still having the reflexes of these editions, that is:

- Most magical items are given by the DM as treasure
- Few spellcasters create magical item even thought the 3E rules makes this easier then ever. Mostly because we still require the spellcaster to acheive quest to get the component for magic item building à la 2E.

Never did we reach the point where we say "Well if I sold my +1 sword and my +3 armor I could buy that item". Never. But we still play a fairly high level of magic. High magic doesn't equal diablo.

That being said, I also enjoy low magic campaign. And in that case, I would be temped to leave the core spellcasting classes alone. They would be rare, very rare among the NPC but just as easy to come by in an adventuring party. And I have absolutly no problems having them more powerful then the non-spellcasting classes. Nobody wants to play them anyway (at least in our group) ! I would probably give them a 20% XP penality or an innability to multi-class (like the paladin or the monk). And I probably would get rid of the monk and create monk oriented feats for fighters. I would replace ranger's spellcasting ability with archery skills (orignal, not virtual feats if possible). And I would let the paladin keep it's spells. The ranger would be the only core class with spells that I would modify. I would keep the bard almost as is, but I would give him two more skill points per level and switch cha with int for spellcasting abilities; they would gain spells just like a wizard, with a spell book. And they wouldn't get automatic spells, they would have to find scrolls and/or spellbooks to copy them. And they would be rare because it's a low magic campaign (I would do the same for wizard). I'd probably have to modify a bit the sorceror, but I would wait until someone played one before...

And there would be almost no "magical" monsters. Maybe undead, but no monsters.


And one last thing. Why change the core classes to have a low magic campaign ? Why being bothered about the fact that many core classes cast spells ? If it bothers you that much, just say that there are very few of them among the "normal" population. Or make them PrC. Like someone pointed out in another thread, in proportion, there is less spellcasting classes in 3E then in 2E !

 

[S'mon]

And one last thing. Why change the core classes to have a low magic campaign ? Why being bothered about the fact that many core classes cast spells ? If it bothers you that much, just say that there are very few of them among the "normal" population. Or make them PrC. Like someone pointed out in another thread, in proportion, there is less spellcasting classes in 3E then in 2E !

I agree, this is what I do - I'd rather have 1st level PC Sorcerors in my game than require everyone to be a Prestige class before they can cast spells! Changing the core classes & keeping them balanced is a _lot_ of work. Just make NPC spellcasters infrequent (and feared), have less monsters and much less magic items, ignore wealth-by-level (or divide by 10, or whatever) and you have a playable game. Anything in the DMG IMO is up for grabs, but I don't like to change the PHB without very good reason - using it 'as is' gives the players a solid grounding in my world. And making 1st level PCs already unusual & powerful compared to the common herd means less demand for rapid level advancement.

 

[Garmorn]

A question and a sugestion.

While I don't run low magic campains, I to would be glad to help, but need to ask a some questions first.

What do you mean by low magic? I have read many different takes. Some mean few to no magic items. Others just want to limit the number of spell casters, and some want a reduction in the power of magic. Each of these has their own problems/solution that might be different if used in combination.

Do want house rule type changes or a different d20 system like SW or WoT?


I have one suggestion if your are going for house rules type.
Simply raise the level of spells across the board. Make Cantrips 1st level spells and 1st level spells 2nd level. This will not only reduce the power of spell casters but will increase the cost and of magic items by increasing the level of spell need to make things. Another method is to drop the cantrip line on the spell casting charts and then reduce each level by one so that the first line that now reads 1st level will read 0 level spells. Again a similar but not quite the same effect. The difference is when looking at prequisites for different things.

 

[Desdichado]

I think it can be done by just keeping play at or below 10th level, making magic items much more rare, making NPC spell-casters very rare.

Scrap the experience and treasure tables and just give players rewards (XP and otherwise) based on how fast you want them to progress, not on what any table tells you. Also eliminate a lot of the weirdo monsters. Have more classed humanoid antagonists. Then you know that the CR issue isn't raised.

Otherwise, I'd also think about maybe replacing magic with something more along the lines of the Force Adept from Star Wars (maybe using a selected list of D&D spells, though.) Get rid of evocation if you want to get rid of flashy magic, or Divination if you want to eliminate some more of the "magic as technology" feel. Don't give out magic weapons at all: use the rules in Dragon for "levelling" up weapons. Any NPCs that have magical weapons/armor, make sure it's keyed to only work for them, or for their race, or their class or whatever so the PCs have difficulty making it useful, if they can at all.

I think the disparity of the magic-user classes and fighter-like classes WITHOUT magic items will not be a problem if you keep the play level relatively low. Give out extremely slow XP progression.

Of course, I'm making some assumptions. I'm assuming that by low-magic, you also mean (to a certain extent) more realistic, less heroic, less "comic-bookish." If it's truly only magic that you want to limit, these suggestions won't really help you too much.

 

[kenjib]

How about this simple solution:

1. Use the Sovereign Stone classes.
2. Ignore the treasure by level and treasure per encounter tables. Give treasure based on what's realistic , and what you want the characters to have, instead.
3. Use CR's with a heavy grain of salt, especially keeping an eye on DR (or removing it from some creatures).

EDIT: I forgot item creation feats.

4. Make item creation for all but potions, scrolls, and maybe wands, require:
a. Research or item creation notes - treat this like researching or scribing a spell - casters must keep a research journal.
b. Power components as per the variant rules.

These two additions put the creation of items firmly within the realm of strict supervision by the DM and make such a task possibly an epic undertaking.

 

[UofMDude]

I like the D&D 3e rules and I like running low-magic games. One thing I do is have fewer, weaker monsters than the 3e norm, generally conversions of old monsters without pumping them up the way many 3e monsters are (starting with those muscle-man orcs - orcs used to have STR 12).

BTW, no GM I know uses those wealth by level tables, in my experience most 4th level fighters are still running around in their 1st-level chain shirts...

My 2nd level Fighter was delighted last week when he got to strip a friend's corpse of his chain shirt to replace his own scalemail; although I had to pay 12gp to refit it, a serious dent in my funds...

Hi, I'm Jeff. It's nice to meet you

Pretty much every campaign I have run or been in players have gotten plate by 4th level if they wanted it.

UofMDude

 

[LostSoul]

Is there a way to make magic more of a plot device than a game mechanic?

 

[kenjib]

Re: Make magic magical!

In D&D, magic is not mysterious. Look: a fireball! BOR-ING! There aren't that many strange curses or bizarre enchantments. The commonly used spells are "lock-and-load" video game spells and few other "old stand-bys". Everyone uses them. Everyone knows exactly their effect. I don't like it.

I find this to be the best point in the thread so far. Most alternate magic systems are designed to streamline magic and make it work more on a set of unified and consistent principles. Mongoose's Chaos Magic is a perfect example. That's about as 100% unmysterious as you can make magic, as it's practically been broken down into a set of operating principles, turning it into something like physics rather than something strange an inexplicable. I'm not dogging the Chaos Magic book in general. It's great for what it does, but I just think it exemplifies this point well.

Rather than following consistent rules, I think that magic should be very quirky, ideosyncratic, and obscure in it's workings to make it feel more occult, rare, and mysterious. Maybe I'll post the "occult mage" class I've been working on in the house rules forum.

However, I think one of the most far reaching changes to the system to the benefit of a low magic campaign would be a supplement book of alternate spells for the wizard/sorcerer that are truly bizarre and inexplicable. Many of the spells in the PHB seem designed first around the mechanical rules effect they have, and only second around the actual concept of the spell (if that makes any sense). This is helpful in promoting game balance I'm sure, as the more effect oriented spells like fly, illusions, dream, and invisibility are much harder to balance level-wise than the more mechanically oriented spells like bull's strength, haste, true strike, and summon monster, which you can balance just by crunching numbers.

I agree that we need more strange and creative spells. Enchantments, curses, enigmatic occult sendings and happenings, this is part of what makes magic mysterious. The walking artillery platform sorcerer, which feels very much like a modern day heavy weapons specialist, is part of what makes magic mundane.

 

[Desdichado]

What are the Sovereign Stone classes like?

 

[S'mon]

Hi, I'm Jeff. It's nice to meet you

Pretty much every campaign I have run or been in players have gotten plate by 4th level if they wanted it.

UofMDude

To clarify: I was talking about the 3 GMs (4 including me) I know personally, in the real world, who run or have run 3e D&D games in which I've played. Plus the 4-5 or so I know online who've run or are running games in which I play or have played.